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18mi run or... two 9 mile runs
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Ok, so my friend is 51, in great shape, and he has a 18 mile progressive run coming up on Sunday. He is training for an Ironman, and is 9 weeks out. On his training plan, he has a 18mi progressive run on tap for this weekend. So, the progressive run will be:

14 miles at 8:30 pace (HR <133), and then 3mi at 7:45 pace (HR 155'ish), then a 1mile cool down.

I was thinking it would be better for him to do a morning run of 9mi at 8:30pace, and then later in the day, to another 9 miles at the designated paces. (The reasoning for a double run is that it would be easier on the body)

**As an aside, he does have a tender achilles, and is worried that if opted for two runs in a day, it might negatively impact his achilles.

Thoughts? Input?

Thank you
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Re: 18mi run or... two 9 mile runs [p3] [ In reply to ]
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I can only offer my anecdotal n=1 special case.... I shattered my foot a while back and my PT suggested breaking up my longer runs into two shorter same day runs AM and PM to lower the stress on the foot.

I'm not really sure how 10 miles is any more stressfull than 2x5 miles 8 hrs apart as it's still the same number of footsteps, etc, but so far no reinjury issues and I'm up to 16 miles for my longest day.
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Re: 18mi run or... two 9 mile runs [p3] [ In reply to ]
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Maybe your friend should ask his coach.
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Re: 18mi run or... two 9 mile runs [p3] [ In reply to ]
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p3 wrote:
Ok, so my friend is 51, in great shape, and he has a 18 mile progressive run coming up on Sunday. He is training for an Ironman, and is 9 weeks out. On his training plan, he has a 18mi progressive run on tap for this weekend. So, the progressive run will be:

14 miles at 8:30 pace (HR <133), and then 3mi at 7:45 pace (HR 155'ish), then a 1mile cool down.

I was thinking it would be better for him to do a morning run of 9mi at 8:30pace, and then later in the day, to another 9 miles at the designated paces. (The reasoning for a double run is that it would be easier on the body)

**As an aside, he does have a tender achilles, and is worried that if opted for two runs in a day, it might negatively impact his achilles.

Thoughts? Input?

Thank you


Depends on the athlete, we run long on mondays, because we tend to do bigger days bike sat/sun…we have a local "squad" based setting…the program says "group" for some it might be 2-2.5 easy for others 6km warm up the 3X6km at pure M pace at 1km rec..a total of 32-34km in the longest run for FOP athletes, or descending from M pace at 6-5-4-3-2-1km.

Regardless IMO you don't need to do more than 2-3 big runs in an IM build, we go every 14 days. Splitting runs may or may not work depending on the athlete.

Edit: 14 easy and then cutting down for 3 at only 45 sec less is not really a creative workout, IE likely to add risk but unlikely to add stimulus.

Maurice
Last edited by: mauricemaher: May 27, 16 9:01
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Re: 18mi run or... two 9 mile runs [p3] [ In reply to ]
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I know a lot of people wont agree with me, but ill start splitting up long runs the day that races split their run into 2 parts.

2x Deca-Ironman World Cup (10 Ironmans in 10 days), 2x Quintuple Ironman World Cup (5 Ironmans in 5 days), Ultraman, Ultra Marathoner, and I once did an Ironman.
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Re: 18mi run or... two 9 mile runs [p3] [ In reply to ]
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If the goal is to go out and bang an 18mi run at whatever pace just to get the distance in then yes... split it. Sounds like the plan calls for a progressive run but you're not really progressing anything if you split it. The point is to negative split an 18mi run not a 9mi one. Then there's also the part about getting the nutrition plan dialed etc...
I vote no on this one especially since he's 9 weeks out. He's far enough from race day where this isn't an issue.
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Re: 18mi run or... two 9 mile runs [p3] [ In reply to ]
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Because he is 51, this is very hard to answer. How much has he run over his life? When I ran 100+ miles for three weeks in a row at the end of an extended marathon training period, i was only 35 years old. Things didn't feel good after the training period but everything thankfully held together and I accomplished my marathon goal. I don't know if I would want to tempt the god achilles now that I'm 43.

Wouldn't it be better to shoot for a straight 18 miles and just call it an early day if things feel totally fucked up leaving more recovery time? If he has experience with what he is capable of I think he should trust himself.

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Re: 18mi run or... two 9 mile runs [p3] [ In reply to ]
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This is like one of those test questions that hides the most important info at the end! My answer:

C. If a 51-year old man has a tender achilles, he should not be running 18 miles at all.

------
David Roche
"The Happy Runner" book: https://www.amazon.com/...Longer/dp/1492567647
Coaching: https://swaprunning.com/
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Re: 18mi run or... two 9 mile runs [p3] [ In reply to ]
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I'm under the impression that if you choose to split a long run, that splitting it 50/50 is not the best way and when you do, the shorter is an easy-pace-only run, the longer has the structured work in it.
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Re: 18mi run or... two 9 mile runs [p3] [ In reply to ]
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Splitting long runs worked for me in my recent marathon build. If I'm nursing a niggling injury and/or I'm blasted from a long brick the day before but still want to get in the mileage. Is it ideal? Perhaps not. But it has worked well for my n of 1. In particular I had a nice 2*10 mile (with 20 minute MP) on one day where my first run was at 8am, and second run around 5pm. I think both Jesse Thomas and Chris Baird were splitting for Lanzarote.
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Re: 18mi run or... two 9 mile runs [p3] [ In reply to ]
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There is a 22+ bpm difference in HR going from 8:30 to 7:45 pace? Seems like a lot. What is his VDOT or threshold pace?

p3 wrote:
Ok, so my friend is 51, in great shape, and he has a 18 mile progressive run coming up on Sunday. He is training for an Ironman, and is 9 weeks out. On his training plan, he has a 18mi progressive run on tap for this weekend. So, the progressive run will be:

14 miles at 8:30 pace (HR <133), and then 3mi at 7:45 pace (HR 155'ish), then a 1mile cool down.

I was thinking it would be better for him to do a morning run of 9mi at 8:30pace, and then later in the day, to another 9 miles at the designated paces. (The reasoning for a double run is that it would be easier on the body)

**As an aside, he does have a tender achilles, and is worried that if opted for two runs in a day, it might negatively impact his achilles.

Thoughts? Input?

Thank you
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Re: 18mi run or... two 9 mile runs [logella] [ In reply to ]
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logella wrote:
Maybe your friend should ask his coach.

If he has a coach this-

I am pretty sure if my coach gave me a workout and I asked the Slowtwitch folks about adjusting it instead of him, I would rightfully be looking for a new coach.

Pots
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Re: 18mi run or... two 9 mile runs [pots4] [ In reply to ]
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pots4 wrote:
logella wrote:
Maybe your friend should ask his coach.

If he has a coach this-

I am pretty sure if my coach gave me a workout and I asked the Slowtwitch folks about adjusting it instead of him, I would rightfully be looking for a new coach.

Pots

I can't wait for another "I got fired by my coach" thread!!!!
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Re: 18mi run or... two 9 mile runs [p3] [ In reply to ]
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For me bigger question is ... Why an 18mi run 9 weeks out? (especially progressed to that pace?)

BUT ... if one was going to split it, and considering age ... I would go longer (10-11) with a the quicker paced run in the morning, then easier paced in the evening on the treadmill

-------------------------
Dave Latourette
http://www.TTENation.com
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Re: 18mi run or... two 9 mile runs [pots4] [ In reply to ]
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Jesus Christ this is a tough crowd! He doesn't have a coach. You implied it from a "training plan". The rest of you who tried to be thoughtful, thank you for your responses.
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Re: 18mi run or... two 9 mile runs [p3] [ In reply to ]
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Why is he running an 18 mile run 9 weeks out? How is his cycling and swimming? What are his race goals? These questions are never static. If I had a tender Achilles I sure wouldn't risk an 18 mile run at this point in training.

David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.
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Re: 18mi run or... two 9 mile runs [p3] [ In reply to ]
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I wouldn't call that a progressive run. I would call it more of a tempo finish. Progressive run would have miles getting progressively faster as he works through the run. Those will have different benefits and effects. Doing the run as you described with his Achilles being less than 100 percent I would say splitting is not a bad idea. It sounds like he is more concerned with getting the mileage than hammering out a hard effort. I wouldn't split long runs every week though. He needs some adaptation to the muscle fatigue accumulated over a long run all at once. Just my .02.

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Re: 18mi run or... two 9 mile runs [DaveRoche] [ In reply to ]
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I am 51 and have to manage my Achilles tendons (both of them) carefully. Certainly not a speed demon but I run 30 - 50 miles a week and have been consistently for a few years now. My coach has me build to a long progressive negative split by 5K for 2:30. He doesn't want me going any longer than 2 hours but I like to go long so I talked him into extending it as long as no pain. Any hint of achilles pain and I back off and cut things short.

I also like to do one really big volume week about 4 - 6 weeks before race day where I slow it all down (duathlete so run and bike only) and go high volume but stay low zone 2 the whole week.

What irritates my achilles more than anything is track intervals and not running often enough. I find that if I don't run frequently, I have more issues.
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Re: 18mi run or... two 9 mile runs [p3] [ In reply to ]
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Two 11 mile runs.
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Re: 18mi run or... two 9 mile runs [thisgirl] [ In reply to ]
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in my career i've treated hundreds of runners with achilles injuries. you know what i never hear? man, that long run really made my achilles feel better.

time after time, after time. when i ask my patients when they noticed the pain first onset, the response would be. "it was after my long run".....

take that for what it's worth.

john
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Re: 18mi run or... two 9 mile runs [p3] [ In reply to ]
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I don't care if he has a coach or not. If he's 51 with a tender achilles, he shouldn't be doing an 18 mile run period.

When you run long, each additional mile starts doing more and more damage. Your body stiffens, your form suffers and miles 15-18 do much more damage than miles 7-10. If you can handle that and recover, great. But if you are staving off a season-ending injury, not so much.

On a more general note, the long run is the single most overrated component of marathon training there is. It never ceases to amaze me how people running 40 miles a week will slavishly pack almost half of them into one run and think they've done something good.

Your body responds best to repeated stimulus. Day after day. Not one huge effort followed by a few days off.

If he insists on doing 18 miles in one day with a tender achilles, then definitely prefer two 9 mile runs.
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Re: 18mi run or... two 9 mile runs [JoeO] [ In reply to ]
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JoeO wrote:
On a more general note, the long run is the single most overrated component of marathon training there is. It never ceases to amaze me how people running 40 miles a week will slavishly pack almost half of them into one run and think they've done something good.

i always rofl when my patients tell me they "need" to get a long run in. silly runners... unless you're a top level/elite athlete, you really really don't need to be doing 16+ mile runs.

what people don't realize is that elite runners run 16-20 miles as their "long run". but the reality is that it takes them 90-110 minutes (ish) to hit those numbers whereas the average runner (even above average runner) will take 110-150 minutes to run those numbers. when my runner patients ask me what i do for a "long run", i tell them i run 95 minutes off the bike on sundays. it love watching their eyes bug out, it's like they can't handle not knowing a mile number...
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Re: 18mi run or... two 9 mile runs [p3] [ In reply to ]
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I have de-prioritised long runs in favour of bike mileage and intensity and overall weekly run volume with good results (new HIM PB at age 47 after 5 years focusing on job and family) - partly to prevent injury and partly because I don't enjoy running 2+ hours in one go too often.

I often do 2-run days (to work and back home), possibly tack on a few km in the evening to get me to somewhere between 25-30km every other week.

My last IM admittedly was an unmitigated disaster, but that was heat related.
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