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Re: Help me out with this statement. [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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health doesn't exist as a concept without the concept of unhealthiness.

Maybe, maybe not, but that's not the question. The question is whether or not someone can experience good with experiencing bad.

Well actually, the question you asked me was whether you could experience health without experiencing sick.

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On the contrary, I think a person very much experiences health as good and sickness or bad health as bad.

I don't think you're paying much attention to the people around you. There are alarming numbers of people who are unhealthy, and don't see that as particularly bad. Many of them aren't even aware that they are unhealthy. Of course, when it gets obvious, like the flu or a broken arm, then it's easy to differentiate. But even then, that's because it's a departure from the norm, which brings us back to the necessity for a frame of reference.

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People don't experience goodness or badness as purely abstract terms at all. They experience specific things as good or bad, better or worse, best or worst.

My point exactly. Good, bad, better, worse, etc are experienced in relative terms. If a person were pumped full of dopamine from the womb, and never allowed to experience any pain, or discomfort, or bad feelings of any kind, the idea of "good" would have no meaning for him. Feeling good is just the baseline for existence to him. That idea of "good" being the baseline, simply isn't how we understand/define the concept. Something that is "good" is something that has favorable qualities, or a thing we would prefer. But preference only has meaning if there are alternatives. We have to prefer a thing as opposed to something else, for that preference to mean anything.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: Help me out with this statement. [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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Well actually, the question you asked me was whether you could experience health without experiencing sick.


Yes, because I rather naively assumed we could assume that health is good and sickness is bad. My mistake.

Of course, when it gets obvious, like the flu or a broken arm, then it's easy to differentiate. But even then, that's because it's a departure from the norm, which brings us back to the necessity for a frame of reference.

Yes, but according to you, no frame of reference exists for that person until he gets sick. He hasn't been able to experience all that health he's enjoyed as his norm until he comes down with the flu, for some reason.

People don't experience goodness or badness as purely abstract terms at all. They experience specific things as good or bad, better or worse, best or worst.

My point exactly. Good, bad, better, worse, etc are experienced in relative terms.

I knew that was confusing as I typed it.

I wasn't trying to say that people only experience things on a scale from worst to best, and can't experience them without having personal experience with the full scale. I was trying to say that people don't experience purely abstract concepts like Good or Bad, but that they experience more concrete realities like sickness and health, or loneliness and friendship, as either good or bad. But I maintain that one does not need to have experience the bad in order to experience the good. One can experience, as I say, health, without having experienced unhealthiness. One can be happy without having to be sad first. And so on.

Something that is "good" is something that has favorable qualities, or a thing we would prefer. But preference only has meaning if there are alternatives. We have to prefer a thing as opposed to something else, for that preference to mean anything.

Maybe, but one does not have to experience the bad to prefer the corresponding bad. And I'm not sure it's necessary to prefer a good in order to experience it. As you say, the good might simply be accepted as the norm. It can still be experienced and enjoyed even if one remains unaware that a corresponding bad even exists.










"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: Help me out with this statement. [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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Well actually, the question you asked me was whether you could experience health without experiencing sick.

Yes, because I rather naively assumed we could assume that health is good and sickness is bad. My mistake.

They are, because we have assigned meanings to the words good and bad which place them on a relative scale.

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Yes, but according to you, no frame of reference exists for that person until he gets sick. He hasn't been able to experience all that health he's enjoyed as his norm until he comes down with the flu, for some reason.

How do you have an idea if your arm feels the way it's supposed to unless someone tells you, or you hurt it? How do you know if your eyes work the way they're supposed to, unless you get them tested and someone tells you, or you try on lenses and suddenly realize you had bad vision? None of us exists in a vacuum. If a person was 100% healthy for his entire life, and he never saw anyone get sick or hurt, and he never had anyone tell him this is what healthy feels like, he'd have no frame of reference to even consider the concept of health.

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I was trying to say that people don't experience purely abstract concepts like Good or Bad, but that they experience more concrete realities like sickness and health, or loneliness and friendship, as either good or bad.

Sure, but the categorization of those experiences as either good or bad (or wherever in between) depends on their being an understanding of the relative positions on the scale. A lonely person wouldn't know he was lonely unless he either had experienced "not lonely" in the past, or until he experiences "not lonely." Loneliness exists because a person prefers to have engagement with other people. The only way to know that you prefer one thing over another is to know what those things are, or to at least know that there IS a something other than what you don't prefer.

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But I maintain that one does not need to have experience the bad in order to experience the good. One can experience, as I say, health, without having experienced unhealthiness. One can be happy without having to be sad first. And so on.

And I maintain that whether it's theoretically possible or not, it doesn't reflect reality. We come from the womb with the concept of preferring something over another thing. We prefer to feel not hungry, instead of feeling hungry. We prefer to feel comforted over feeling scared or alarmed. The idea of good and bad already exists for us, and we experience both from our first conscious thoughts, regardless of the fact that we don't learn to label them until later.

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As you say, the good might simply be accepted as the norm. It can still be experienced and enjoyed even if one remains unaware that a corresponding bad even exists.

Again, it depends on what "experienced" means in this context. Yes, you can experience that goodness, in that you can live, and exist, and have the good actions happen to you. But if you have never experienced anything less than good, then good wouldn't just be the norm, it would be the worst thing you had ever experienced. By comparison, good would suck compared to any experiences that were better. We see this all the time. People get spoiled. They become so used to a baseline that's really pretty good. But because they never experienced anything bad (in whatever context that is) they become dissatisfied with the goodness they have, and complain that it's bad and they want better. And that's with people who already ostensibly understand the concepts of good and bad, and have had actual bad things happen to them. The mechanic would certainly exist if a person had actually never experienced anything objectively bad.




Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: Help me out with this statement. [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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If a person was 100% healthy for his entire life, and he never saw anyone get sick or hurt, and he never had anyone tell him this is what healthy feels like, he'd have no frame of reference to even consider the concept of health.

Nevertheless, even in that unlikely scenario, has he not experienced being healthy, and is that not good?


How do you know if your eyes work the way they're supposed to, unless you get them tested and someone tells you, or you try on lenses and suddenly realize you had bad vision?

Because, quite simply, I can see. Seeing is good. Maybe I don't see the best, but I still see, and that's good.

But if you have never experienced anything less than good, then good wouldn't just be the norm, it would be the worst thing you had ever experienced.

If I've never experienced anything less than good, I've still experienced good. Yes, it would be my norm. Yes, it could be characterized as the "worst thing I've experienced." That doesn't make it bad.










"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: Help me out with this statement. [Triagain3] [ In reply to ]
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But why is it nonsense? I believe we assume it is true because of our experience, but I would think logically it is not true, that a being can exist happy without knowing pain.

Because the human body does not experience "Happiness" based on the experience of "Sadness". These are internal reactions based on chemical responses and receptors that exist. They exist separate from each other and will exist regardless of whether their opponents are ever used at all.

In essence this is like saying "One can not experience feeling hungry unless they have experienced being full"...nope, I get hungry when my stomach is empty and BG drops low. OTOH I get full when my stomach is filled with food and my BG rises.

Same way with happiness etc. The presence of certain hormones and chemicals makes me happy...their absence makes me sad.

~Matt

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Re: Help me out with this statement. [Old Hickory] [ In reply to ]
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Never mind, analyzed ad nauseam already.

_________________________________
I'll be what I am
A solitary man
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Re: Help me out with this statement. [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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Nevertheless, even in that unlikely scenario, has he not experienced being healthy, and is that not good?

We judge it to be good, but would the person be able to make that judgment without comprehension of the relative states of being?

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Because, quite simply, I can see. Seeing is good. Maybe I don't see the best, but I still see, and that's good.

So basically, you don't know if your eyes are healthy and working the way they should. You only know that you can see. Whether you can see well, or properly, or they way you're supposed to,...you have no idea. You don't know if your eyes are healthy or not, or if your vision is good or not. You know that seeing is good, relative to not seeing, but that's the extent of it.

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If I've never experienced anything less than good, I've still experienced good. Yes, it would be my norm. Yes, it could be characterized as the "worst thing I've experienced." That doesn't make it bad.

It doesn't make it objectively bad. But hardly anything is objectively bad. Good and bad are subjective terms. From the perspective of the person experiencing things, and absent any input from other people or the outside world telling them what real bad looks like, yes, the worst thing you have ever experienced IS bad. Even if, to other people, that same thing would be considered good.



Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: Help me out with this statement. [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
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Duffy wrote:
A more accurate statement would be that one cannot fully appreciate good unless they experience bad.

Every time I come home from travel or out of town work I have renewed/reenergized appreciation for just how fucking awesome of a place in which I live.
appreciate was what popped into my head when I read the post as well.

My Bad experience...ho bag cheating wife in first marriage, robbed bank accounts, tax fraud, insurance fraud, she got arrested, took three years to dig myself out of the hole.



Appreciating my now good experience....seriously hot wife that ex sees and knows she's hotter, wealthy and is an honest great person. Had to take a few lumps to fully appreciate my current situation! Life is good!!
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Re: Help me out with this statement. [SkipG] [ In reply to ]
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I don't need bad pussy to appreciate good pussy.

Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb
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