I'm working with someone online and after just a couple of video analysis sessions have dropped from the mid 1:30's all out and 1:48 cruising pace to around 1:21 all out and a cruising pace in the mid 1:30's. I imagine it's even better to have someone evaluating your stroke in person and recommend you go for it.
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Re: swim coach for one or two sessions. worth it? [TriTamp]
[ In reply to ]
Re: swim coach for one or two sessions. worth it? [desert dude]
[ In reply to ]
desert dude wrote:
Your probably better off going for a 3 half hour sessions than 2 hour sessions. Go in with clear specific things you are looking for.
This is a good idea. I'm sure a good swim coach could pickup things to work on within a half hour and give me some guidance on the best way to work on correcting flaws. Then maybe 4 weeks later do another session.
Re: swim coach for one or two sessions. worth it? [Patgreen]
[ In reply to ]
Patgreen wrote:
Join a masters swim group...get in the water often and work hard. That's truly the only way to get better. Technique...sure it's important...but you're not gonna be able to get into, or stay, in the "best" position until you're able to maintain certain speeds to get up on the water..!!Is this true? It always seems people say work on technique first. Before this year I didn't do many interval type workouts and mostly just got in and swam lap after lap. This year I've started incorporating far more interval type workouts and pushing myself more. But I just assumed doing this without getting my technique improved was really just counterproductive.
Re: swim coach for one or two sessions. worth it? [TriTamp]
[ In reply to ]
TriTamp,
Absolutely it's true..!! The ideal situation is on where the masters coach has you doing mostly short medium to high intensity and doing stroke correction periodically throughout your time in the water. Your switch to intervals is a great thing and you will see an improvement if you're pushing the uncomfortable zone. If your interested in more details on how we train send me a private message and I can call you and give you a quick rundown.
Hope this helps.....
Pat Green
Green Multisport Training
Absolutely it's true..!! The ideal situation is on where the masters coach has you doing mostly short medium to high intensity and doing stroke correction periodically throughout your time in the water. Your switch to intervals is a great thing and you will see an improvement if you're pushing the uncomfortable zone. If your interested in more details on how we train send me a private message and I can call you and give you a quick rundown.
Hope this helps.....
Pat Green
Green Multisport Training
Re: swim coach for one or two sessions. worth it? [Patgreen]
[ In reply to ]
Patgreen wrote:
TriTamp, Absolutely it's true..!! The ideal situation is on where the masters coach has you doing mostly short medium to high intensity and doing stroke correction periodically throughout your time in the water. Your switch to intervals is a great thing and you will see an improvement if you're pushing the uncomfortable zone. If your interested in more details on how we train send me a private message and I can call you and give you a quick rundown.
Hope this helps.....
Pat - I thought your comment about the uncomfortable zone was important, especially to someone who is new, like myself and I assume the OP. I thought I knew what uncomfortable was but my coach has started writing sets that at first glance I laughed at, thinking I couldn't complete one interval at that pace, let alone 10. Much to my surprise, he's usually correct. Much like the bike I've found I didn't really know what "suffering" was when I first started... I thought I was really pushing myself and working hard, but I really didn't understand. The best way to push yourself is to swim with people faster than you, but if that doesn't work, write some sets that seem overly ambitious. There are days when I swim in the afternoon and spend the entire day dreading the pool b/c of the fast times and short rest my coach has given. When I finish I've had multiple people come up to me to ask if I'm all right as I lay slumped over the deck panting for breath... The first time that happened is when I realized I hadn't been as uncomfortable as I thought on my own.
Re: swim coach for one or two sessions. worth it? [TriTamp]
[ In reply to ]
TriTamp wrote:
Patgreen wrote:
Join a masters swim group...get in the water often and work hard. That's truly the only way to get better. Technique...sure it's important...but you're not gonna be able to get into, or stay, in the "best" position until you're able to maintain certain speeds to get up on the water..!!Is this true? It always seems people say work on technique first. Before this year I didn't do many interval type workouts and mostly just got in and swam lap after lap. This year I've started incorporating far more interval type workouts and pushing myself more. But I just assumed doing this without getting my technique improved was really just counterproductive.
The biggest misunderstanding with AOS swimmers (unfortunately perpetuated by Total Immersion), is that you have to 'swim easy with good/great technique' before progressing to the harder work.
That concept fails for the vast majority of AOS swimmers. The main reason being that the reason most AOS swimmers don't have good technique is less an issue of knowledge, but almost always an issue of weak swim-specific muscular endurance required to maintain not only the EVF arm pull, but also the body position (which requires core muscles.)
The 'early vertical forearm' is the best example of this. It is physically impossible to do an elite-level early vertical forearm in the water unless you have the fitness to do it. You can drill all you want on land, study videos till you're blue in the face, and do flexibility drills, but you will never EVF like an elite unless you build the power to do it.
AOS swimmers get so wrapped up in fearing that they'll ingrain 'bad habits' with hard swimming and suffering that they pull back the moment they're getting the most benefits. Kids, on the other hand, don't have this fear - they'll thrash and suffer their way through their workouts when the AOS swimmer would have given up long ago because of 'suboptimal technique', and we all know who comes out ahead in these contests.
Pushing your boundaries with hard swimming is required for improving technique so you can swim faster. Yes, your form does degrade as you get more tired and push harder and harder, but the point is you come back next time stronger, and suffer less degradation. And the coach is helpful for telling you what (new) mistakes you're making and need to focus on as you hit those faster levels of swimming.
Re: swim coach for one or two sessions. worth it? [TriTamp]
[ In reply to ]
I swam all through high school and college, so figured I didn't need any help in that department.
One day I was introduced to a high school coach who had put several students into the Olympic trials. Figured I'd pay her for a few lessons just to see if there's any room for improvement. 4x30 minute lessons and I chopped 2min consistently off my HIM time, prob 5min off IM, with zero change in training. All technique work in my time with her. Cost me $100 total well worth it
If a guy with an advanced swim background can lop off that much time that easily, imagine how much an inexperienced swimmer could learn!
One day I was introduced to a high school coach who had put several students into the Olympic trials. Figured I'd pay her for a few lessons just to see if there's any room for improvement. 4x30 minute lessons and I chopped 2min consistently off my HIM time, prob 5min off IM, with zero change in training. All technique work in my time with her. Cost me $100 total well worth it
If a guy with an advanced swim background can lop off that much time that easily, imagine how much an inexperienced swimmer could learn!
Re: swim coach for one or two sessions. worth it? [USPro Tri]
[ In reply to ]
USPro Tri wrote:
I swam all through high school and college, so figured I didn't need any help in that department. One day I was introduced to a high school coach who had put several students into the Olympic trials. Figured I'd pay her for a few lessons just to see if there's any room for improvement. 4x30 minute lessons and I chopped 2min consistently off my HIM time, prob 5min off IM, with zero change in training. All technique work in my time with her. Cost me $100 total well worth it
If a guy with an advanced swim background can lop off that much time that easily, imagine how much an inexperienced swimmer could learn!
I can say from having attended several triclub coaching sessions, and having a few sessions with an ex-olympic level swim coach (with video), that those types of results are not at all typical.
Chopping 2 mins of a HIM equates to probably around a 10sec/100 jump in 100m training paces - I've yet to see people in my local triclubs (all of whom have a LOT more room for improvement than you did) even get 1sec/100 immediately after a coaching clinic or a coach/video session. (We have an excellent swim coach/video session in our area that does clinics several times a year.)
What the heck were you doing that cost you 10sec/100 from technique alone??
Re: swim coach for one or two sessions. worth it? [lightheir]
[ In reply to ]
Well yeah they're still going to have to put in a lot more mileage to get better as well.... I already had the training aspect covered, just needed technique improvements. It didn't happen overnight though, I had to spend a lot of time consistently imprinting the technique that she taught me. I think most people go to a clinic and then throw the advice out the window if it doesn't work right away for them!
In my particular case, most of the difference was she switched me to a two beat kick. Which for me made me a lot more balanced, and able to swim from the hips a lot better
In my particular case, most of the difference was she switched me to a two beat kick. Which for me made me a lot more balanced, and able to swim from the hips a lot better
Re: swim coach for one or two sessions. worth it? [lightheir]
[ In reply to ]
.... Also most of the change was from me getting better, but part of the change was me being able to hang with faster packs. My pool times alone were not 10sec faster.
Also pool times are not necessarily indicative of long course speed… Even though I wasn't a whole lot faster in the pool, I could hold the same pace much longer. In other words I didn't get that much "faster" per se, just "slowed down less" due to being more efficient
Lessons may or may not work well for some people, but IMO they -absolutely- should seek out a professional eye and give it a shot
Also pool times are not necessarily indicative of long course speed… Even though I wasn't a whole lot faster in the pool, I could hold the same pace much longer. In other words I didn't get that much "faster" per se, just "slowed down less" due to being more efficient
Lessons may or may not work well for some people, but IMO they -absolutely- should seek out a professional eye and give it a shot
Re: swim coach for one or two sessions. worth it? [lightheir]
[ In reply to ]
lightheir wrote:
TriTamp wrote:
Patgreen wrote:
Join a masters swim group...get in the water often and work hard. That's truly the only way to get better. Technique...sure it's important...but you're not gonna be able to get into, or stay, in the "best" position until you're able to maintain certain speeds to get up on the water..!!Is this true? It always seems people say work on technique first. Before this year I didn't do many interval type workouts and mostly just got in and swam lap after lap. This year I've started incorporating far more interval type workouts and pushing myself more. But I just assumed doing this without getting my technique improved was really just counterproductive.
The biggest misunderstanding with AOS swimmers (unfortunately perpetuated by Total Immersion), is that you have to 'swim easy with good/great technique' before progressing to the harder work.
That concept fails for the vast majority of AOS swimmers. The main reason being that the reason most AOS swimmers don't have good technique is less an issue of knowledge, but almost always an issue of weak swim-specific muscular endurance required to maintain not only the EVF arm pull, but also the body position (which requires core muscles.)
The 'early vertical forearm' is the best example of this. It is physically impossible to do an elite-level early vertical forearm in the water unless you have the fitness to do it. You can drill all you want on land, study videos till you're blue in the face, and do flexibility drills, but you will never EVF like an elite unless you build the power to do it.
AOS swimmers get so wrapped up in fearing that they'll ingrain 'bad habits' with hard swimming and suffering that they pull back the moment they're getting the most benefits. Kids, on the other hand, don't have this fear - they'll thrash and suffer their way through their workouts when the AOS swimmer would have given up long ago because of 'suboptimal technique', and we all know who comes out ahead in these contests.
Pushing your boundaries with hard swimming is required for improving technique so you can swim faster. Yes, your form does degrade as you get more tired and push harder and harder, but the point is you come back next time stronger, and suffer less degradation. And the coach is helpful for telling you what (new) mistakes you're making and need to focus on as you hit those faster levels of swimming.
Make sense. I think also I'm using to pushing myself hard on the bike and running. I do intervals and feel like I'm dying but at least I can breath when I want. Swimming is another story. I've done some hard intervals and get near the end and feel like I'm struggling and always wonder if the lifeguard is getting off his perch thinking he needs to dive in to rescue me. lol Being totally honest with myself I KNOW I need to push myself harder in the pool.
Re: swim coach for one or two sessions. worth it? [TriTamp]
[ In reply to ]
+1 on joining a master's swim group. I am lucky that we have several to choose from here in Austin. In addition to the masters group, my local YMCA also offers a swim technique class that runs a month long, twice a week - I did that for 2 months. I started the masters class 3 weeks ago and get lots of one on one coaching during the class. The coaches are top notch, too. I do an hour twice a week and have already shown a big improvement. I also like the fact that the workouts are all ready planned out so all I have to do is show up and be ready. Oh, and don't let the word "masters" scare you off - there should be all levels of ability. For me, $50 a month for up to 4 sessions a week is a bargain.
Re: swim coach for one or two sessions. worth it? [lightheir]
[ In reply to ]
Lightheir,
WOW.....I could not agree more. The main difference, as I see it, is that when working hard and uncomfortable it is a totally unnatural act to stick your face underwater..!!! Lol. However, these "swim coaches" are making a killing selling these stroke improvement camps and lessons and don't really contribute much to the improvement. I'll stick by my comments that if you want to get better swim often and hard and have a coach on deck that knows what improvements you need to make. For the most part leave the pull buoy and floatation pants alone and just get busy..!!
Cheers.
Pat Green
Green Multisport Training
WOW.....I could not agree more. The main difference, as I see it, is that when working hard and uncomfortable it is a totally unnatural act to stick your face underwater..!!! Lol. However, these "swim coaches" are making a killing selling these stroke improvement camps and lessons and don't really contribute much to the improvement. I'll stick by my comments that if you want to get better swim often and hard and have a coach on deck that knows what improvements you need to make. For the most part leave the pull buoy and floatation pants alone and just get busy..!!
Cheers.
Pat Green
Green Multisport Training
Re: swim coach for one or two sessions. worth it? [TriTamp]
[ In reply to ]
Tritramp,
Sounds like you are getting in some good workouts. It is unnatural to stick your face in the water when you are gasping for air..!! However, when you become comfortable, being uncomfortable in the water is when you will see the greatest improvements. Whoever is writing your workouts sounds like they have the right button if your exhausted like that..!! Just keep doing those short interval swims on 15-20 seconds rest and you'll improve. I've seen it tons of times.
Hope this helps.
Pat Green
Green Multisport Training
Sounds like you are getting in some good workouts. It is unnatural to stick your face in the water when you are gasping for air..!! However, when you become comfortable, being uncomfortable in the water is when you will see the greatest improvements. Whoever is writing your workouts sounds like they have the right button if your exhausted like that..!! Just keep doing those short interval swims on 15-20 seconds rest and you'll improve. I've seen it tons of times.
Hope this helps.
Pat Green
Green Multisport Training
Re: swim coach for one or two sessions. worth it? [Patgreen]
[ In reply to ]
Patgreen wrote:
Tritramp, Sounds like you are getting in some good workouts. It is unnatural to stick your face in the water when you are gasping for air..!! However, when you become comfortable, being uncomfortable in the water is when you will see the greatest improvements. Whoever is writing your workouts sounds like they have the right button if your exhausted like that..!! Just keep doing those short interval swims on 15-20 seconds rest and you'll improve. I've seen it tons of times.
Hope this helps.
Thanks. It does help. Most of the workouts I pick from places like triathlon.competitor.com, traineroads plans, and sometimes here on slowtwitch. I mostly try to find workouts that are simple for me to understand and follow and seem like they would push me. I don't typically use many pool "toys". I will use a pull buoy, occasionally. Rarely paddles because I've had minor issues with my shoulders in the past, not due to swimming so I'm cautious about paddles for that reason. I don't look a lot of swim drills because never having been taught them I don't want to being doing them wrong and thus negating their effectiveness. I've on occasion done the closed fist drill since obviously that's straightforward but mostly I just front crawl doing different types of intervals whether it's ladder sets, or doing sets of 50m sprint/50 easy. Training mostly solo I feel like it's better for me make thinks simple but hard rather than complicate things with drills that I don't really know what I am doing. I also do a bunch of open water swimming mostly in the ocean. That's usually my longer steady state swim but I've actually started to add some faster sprints in that as well. I just need to get in the pool more frequently and work harder. I'm sure I'm like a lot of triathletes in the beginning. Swimming often comes last. This is my 3rd year doing triathlons so I'm starting to work on better training to actually improve.
It can unlock a whole new world for you if the coach really knows what they are looking at, if you are open to forgetting what you think you know and deferring to them and if you go away and apply the stink out of it on your own after the sessions. It's not like buying a disc wheel and saying 'weeee I just nailed down xx.xx on my bike split from last week!'. Lot of ifs there and I believe this is why there is so much uncertainly with swim coaching in tri ranks. My 2 cents would be go to an actual swim coach, not a triathlon coach. Not to say there aren't some amazing triathlon coaches who truly know swimming, but your odds of nailing down an expert in their craft with a one sport approach is much greater.
Learning technical changes in my stroke after 24 years of doing it wrong wasn't as hard as ingraining them. Dang that was a winter of training wheels. That takes time and yards and intensity to make it hold up vs the clock. My body position was so atrocious and my ability to support the body so inept I picked up over 20 seconds in a winter block with my coach that was purely technical. Then he said 'now go swim your butt off'. That's when the work started with respect to say the 2 x 20 line of thinking at home on the trainer. It became about lots of sweat and learning to be comfortable being uncomfortable. A lot. It's stayed with me too I have barely swam at all the last year and my untrained out of shape self lazily warming up can barely find a way to swim as slow as my old self going full tilt. Coaching from a swim coach was a big win for me. Hope you find a good coach and work hit hard swimming can be a fun blast and addicting. Went from my hate to love!
Learning technical changes in my stroke after 24 years of doing it wrong wasn't as hard as ingraining them. Dang that was a winter of training wheels. That takes time and yards and intensity to make it hold up vs the clock. My body position was so atrocious and my ability to support the body so inept I picked up over 20 seconds in a winter block with my coach that was purely technical. Then he said 'now go swim your butt off'. That's when the work started with respect to say the 2 x 20 line of thinking at home on the trainer. It became about lots of sweat and learning to be comfortable being uncomfortable. A lot. It's stayed with me too I have barely swam at all the last year and my untrained out of shape self lazily warming up can barely find a way to swim as slow as my old self going full tilt. Coaching from a swim coach was a big win for me. Hope you find a good coach and work hit hard swimming can be a fun blast and addicting. Went from my hate to love!