Login required to started new threads

Login required to post replies

Prev Next
Re: Are DISCS faster than a well-designed DEEP carbon wheel? By how much? [Nicko] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Nicko wrote:
Ummm, no.
Now you are completely mixing up rolling resistance (that scales with vertical load) with the topic at hand, the "non-measured" aerodynamic property called "power to spin" (that scales with air speed).

Completely different entities. Like Crr and CdA. Try again.

And your textbook graphs deals with slip and slip angles in relation to horizontal forces that are 0-100% of the vertical load.
In the case of "power to spin", the force that is required for that is ~0.04% of the vertical load.
There will be no significant slip, and yes, there will be a horizontal force that actually "spins" the wheel.

I thought the diagram represented real world conditions not "wheel in the tunnel driven by a roller" conditions. In that case, the horizontal force between the roller and the tire that counteracts the aerodynamic and bearing resisting moments can only be generated if some slip is present.

http://cds-0.blogspot.com
Quote Reply
Re: Are DISCS faster than a well-designed DEEP carbon wheel? By how much? [Nicko] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Nicko wrote:
Tom A. wrote:


Yep...you're going to need to diagram it out and show it.


Sigh.. I promised myself not to get into time thieves like this one...

Anyway, I submit free body diagram #2 and #3 combined:

This is an instantaneous snapshot of the wheel rolling down the horizontal road in still air, with the instant center (IC) right under the hub.
The forces from the fork , Fw from weight and Fp from 'propulsion' acting through the hub axis.
Reaction from the road, Fy as the integral of the pressure and the unknown Fx from horizontal road interaction.
And last, the aero drag vector Fd...

Torque equilibrium equation is 'separated' into a rolling resistance part and an aero drag part.

Can we agree on this one, and do the tunnel analysis later?

Edit: I left out the X and Y force equilibrium equations, but they are 'obvious'. And I made the Fx relevant again, it was named 'irrelevant' when I edited my post too many times and lost track of the wording..
Sooo...
I did submit a free body diagram.
I was expecting some discussion before submitting free body diagram #1, which would tie the real world conditions to the wind tunnel protocol&properties.
No takers (?)
Quote Reply
Re: Are DISCS faster than a well-designed DEEP carbon wheel? By how much? [philly1x] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
philly1x wrote:
I think better questions can be asked, like, "Why don't Jorgensen, True, Stanford, Gomez, Mola, Murray, the Brownlees, etc. all run 404/808 (or sponsors' equivalent wheel) in what amounts to criterium racing?"

uhh, because it's not allowed...obviously.

i have nothing for the ridiculous mathematical discussion that's going on as a sidebar in this thread.
Quote Reply
Re: Are DISCS faster than a well-designed DEEP carbon wheel? By how much? [James Haycraft] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
James Haycraft wrote:
philly1x wrote:
I think better questions can be asked, like, "Why don't Jorgensen, True, Stanford, Gomez, Mola, Murray, the Brownlees, etc. all run 404/808 (or sponsors' equivalent wheel) in what amounts to criterium racing?"

uhh, because it's not allowed...obviously.

OK, prove your statement.

no sponsors | no races | nothing to see here
Quote Reply
Re: Are DISCS faster than a well-designed DEEP carbon wheel? By how much? [philly1x] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
http://www.triathlon.org/...ition-rules_2017.pdf

I had been under the impression that different depth F/R wheels were disallowed at ITU draft legal events. From a perusing of the wheel rules it appears as though that may no longer be the case, although the language is somewhat ambiguous.
Quote Reply
Re: Are DISCS faster than a well-designed DEEP carbon wheel? By how much? [James Haycraft] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
James Haycraft wrote:
http://www.triathlon.org/...ition-rules_2017.pdf

I had been under the impression that different depth F/R wheels were disallowed at ITU draft legal events. From a perusing of the wheel rules it appears as though that may no longer be the case, although the language is somewhat ambiguous.

Ambiguous?
5.2.b. The bicycle is a human powered vehicle with two wheels of equal diameter.
5.2.e.vi. For Elite, U23, Junior and Youth draft-legal competitions, wheels are allowed to be used if they are included in the UCI approved non-standard wheels lists

To attempt to answer my own question which you highlighted: marginal gains and/or comfort. But this is just a guess.

no sponsors | no races | nothing to see here
Last edited by: philly1x: Jan 13, 17 14:28
Quote Reply
Re: Are DISCS faster than a well-designed DEEP carbon wheel? By how much? [philly1x] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
A 404 and 808 are not different diameters. They are the same diameter just different wheel depths. They mean a 650 on the front and a 700 on the rear.

As long as the wheels are approved you should be able to run say a 60mm depth on the front and a 90mm depth on the rear or any other combination you want.
Quote Reply
Re: Are DISCS faster than a well-designed DEEP carbon wheel? By how much? [Nicko] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
JoshatSilca this seems like a very precise and unique measurement. How were you able to measure rotational drag?

In the wind tunnel on the road? How'd did you decouple this from translational drag?
Quote Reply
Re: Are DISCS faster than a well-designed DEEP carbon wheel? By how much? [philly1x] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
The rules WERE heretofore ambiguous. The language has been updated.
Quote Reply
Re: Are DISCS faster than a well-designed DEEP carbon wheel? By how much? [James Haycraft] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
James Haycraft wrote:
http://www.triathlon.org/...ition-rules_2017.pdf

I had been under the impression that different depth F/R wheels were disallowed at ITU draft legal events. From a perusing of the wheel rules it appears as though that may no longer be the case, although the language is somewhat ambiguous.

You are correct, that used to be the case.
Quote Reply
Re: Are DISCS faster than a well-designed DEEP carbon wheel? By how much? [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Rappstar wrote:
Most data ALSO doesn't account for energy required to accelerate the wheel.

Remember, virtually all wind tunnel tests are static. But races are not. The aerodynamics of a disc also play a role in how much it takes to bring the wheel up to speed. And again, aerodynamic drag is the largest resistive force here as well. A disc should accelerate more easily than a deep spoked wheel, in spite of being (typically) heavier.

It's probably impossible to to answer a question like this with anything other than, "a disc is always faster, but by how much 'depends.'"

I will agree that, especially for triathlon, for most people a disc over a deep rear falls very low on the aero totem pole, especially if you plan on riding your aero wheels all the time. Then again, for most folks, the number of races where you can't ride a disc is pretty small, so from a racing standpoint, you actually can ride a disc "all the time."

If you had to put a number on it, I'd say that probably the numbers that are in the 5-10w range are about right over "typical" conditions. So call it about 1.5-3min over an Ironman. Whether or not that's "worth it" to you is totally personal. There are certainly MUCH cheaper upgrades that can make that much of a difference...

remember: 0.1 lbs (50 g) of drag (at 30 mph) = 0.5 s/km = 5 W = 0.005 m^2 CdA = 0.0005 Crr

Quoted so I can find this needle in the haystack that is this thread.
Quote Reply
Re: Are DISCS faster than a well-designed DEEP carbon wheel? By how much? [Nicko] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
This was interesting to me. I didn't reply because I had nothing to add.

'It never gets easier, you just get crazier.'
Quote Reply

Prev Next