Calorie needs

Apr 28, 16 6:46

Post #1 of 23 (2984 views)

So lately I've been doing some very heavy (for me) volume threatening the 1000TSS mark for SBR. Eating enough seems really hard!

So I'm led to believe that I need about 2500 calories doing no working out. I weigh about 150+ or 68-69kg at 5'-11".

Yesterday for example I did a triple. Swim 1 hour early, bike 90 mins with 2 x 20 lunch, run 30 mins late. So probably around 2500 calories burned doing SBR.

So can I assume yesterday I burned close to 5000 calories? Or do I need to take 2 hours of the "no working out" calories away (200 calories) and assume more like 4800? I know that's maybe splitting hairs a bit, but I'm slooooowly losing weight and feel like I never quit eating.

I'm at race weight and have over 4 months to my A race...lol. So would like to gain a pound or 2 in the meantime.

Thanks for any help.

24 Hour World TT Champs-American record holder
Fat Bike Worlds - Race Director
Insta: chris.s.apex

Re: Calorie needs [cmscat50] [ In reply to ]

Apr 28, 16 6:59

Post #2 of 23 (2974 views)

cmscat50 wrote:

So lately I've been doing some very heavy (for me) volume threatening the 1000TSS mark for SBR. Eating enough seems really hard!

So I'm led to believe that I need about 2500 calories doing no working out. I weigh about 150+ or 68-69kg at 5'-11".

Yesterday for example I did a triple. Swim 1 hour early, bike 90 mins with 2 x 20 lunch, run 30 mins late. So probably around 2500 calories burned doing SBR.

So can I assume yesterday I burned close to 5000 calories? Or do I need to take 2 hours of the "no working out" calories away (200 calories) and assume more like 4800? I know that's maybe splitting hairs a bit, but I'm slooooowly losing weight and feel like I never quit eating.

I'm at race weight and have over 4 months to my A race...lol. So would like to gain a pound or 2 in the meantime.

Thanks for any help.

At that weight you do not need 2500 a day with no workouts. You're more in the range of 1800 calories a day unless you are extremely active.
An hour swim is about 450-500 calories
90 min bike as you described is about 1000 calories
30 min run is about 300 calories

So 1800+500+1000+300=3600 to stay even. That would be for someone counting every single calorie they put in right down to the last M&M

Re: Calorie needs [jaretj] [ In reply to ]

Apr 28, 16 7:04

Post #3 of 23 (2965 views)

OK let me clarify a few things because I want to think I'm right, but I'm here to learn...lol.

I have a power meter on my bike. According to that yesterday is a 1200kj ride. So 1200 calories right?

My run was done at 7:30 pace. According to online run calculators at my weight that should be about 500.

And just to add a little humor if you saw me swim or the vid I posted here you'd probably double that calorie estimate for swimming :)

Maybe there's something else I should be going by for calories.

24 Hour World TT Champs-American record holder
Fat Bike Worlds - Race Director
Insta: chris.s.apex

Re: Calorie needs [cmscat50] [ In reply to ]

Apr 28, 16 7:19

Post #4 of 23 (2944 views)

I am 6'1" 155 lbs and have issues maintaining weight. I have found two keys to staying on top of the hunger and calories ... (1) eat often and (2) make sure you are getting sufficient amounts of protein. I try to eat a normal sized breakfast, lunch and dinner and then supplement with a ~200 calorie snack every ~60-90 minutes throughout the day. I also include a recovery drink or meal replacement drink after my AM workout and a protein drink after my PM workout.

I saw this diet yesterday and may give it a shot my next training cycle;)

Re: Calorie needs [cmscat50] [ In reply to ]

Apr 28, 16 7:44

Post #5 of 23 (2916 views)

Everyone is an experiment of one, BUT there are some rules of thumb to get you started from which you can then iterate to get things in line specific to you. Keep in mind that EVERYTHING is variable and nothing is fixed and that EVERYTHING is estimated such that you can't be perfect on a given thing (intake our output) hence the need for iteration.

I recommend starting with the following:

assume you require 1900 calories on a day with no training
assume you burn 150 cals for every 1000 yards swim training
assume that your KJ on the power meter plus 10% equals calories burned
assume that you burn 100 cals per every mile of running.
count the calories that you think you are consuming (as noted, this is wrong even if you do everything right)
weight yourself everyday but only view it in hunks of 7 days

If your deficit or overage doesn't add up to the weight changes that you are observing, tweak the numbers, repeat, repeat, repeat.

I do this usually for a few months get close to where I won't to be and then try to live like a more normal person for the rest of the season. Off season, get fat, start over.

Ironman Certified Coach

Currently accepting limited number of new athletes

Re: Calorie needs [cmscat50] [ In reply to ]

Apr 28, 16 7:55

Post #6 of 23 (2908 views)

I was guessing on the calories for the bike but yes, 1200 sounds within the ball park

Personally I think 500 for that run is overestimating.

I'm still sticking to 150 cals per 1000 yds swam for someone near your (and my) size regardless of speed. It's just work done in the water.

Re: Calorie needs [cmscat50] [ In reply to ]

Apr 28, 16 12:22

Post #7 of 23 (2808 views)

I did a DEXA scan earlier this year and the one thing it did was give me my RMR (Resting Metabolic Rate) which is the value of calories you need to maintain the same weight. At the time I was 5'8" 150lbs and my RMR was 1533. I'm scheduled to go back in for a second scan now that I'm in the midst of training to see how much that has changed.

Now as said before by others, it's unique to everybody. Also, as you get fitter, loose fat mass and gain muscle you burn more calories for the same duration of exercise. Example: In January my 1 hour endurance ride burned 557 calories and now that I've dropped weight, gained muscle that same ride burns 613 calories. While it's not a huge variance (56 cals) over the course of the week it works out to be 560 calories (using 10h a week as an example). The same thing happens with the other activities as well so as you grow fitter ensure you pay close attention to these nuances. Learn your body's baseline and then every 4-6 weeks take a moment to look at any changes between similar sessions you do.

------
"Train so you have no regrets @ the finish line"

Re: Calorie needs [Jim Martin] [ In reply to ]

Apr 28, 16 13:21

Post #8 of 23 (2763 views)

I agree with this approach, you need to include closed-loop feedback into figuring out your calorie needs.

I use Strava for all my calorie estimation. I have a PM for cycling, and find Strava estimates Cal at about kJ+10%, and then it seems to have some formula within to estimate Cal for swim and run. For food tracking i use MFP, and have been tracking it pretty diligently since New Years.

Taking into account my weight changes, I've actually been pretty surprised to learn how much Strava and other online calculators over-estimate calorie burn during exercise. After a couple months, i found my theoretical closed loop BMR ended up being around 1500 cal/day (M, 6'5", 175lb), which just seems ridiculously low. To account for this, I've had to "game" Strava and adjust my weight downwards approximately 1/3 so that the running calories are significantly reduced to seemingly more reasonable levels (~800cal/hr @ Z2), and this also brought my theoretical BMR back up too.

It took a bit of time to put together the spreadsheet, but its been a very interesting analysis and for anyone that cares about calorie tracking it's well worth figuring out what your own numbers are for swim, bike, run, and BMR. You may be surprised to learn that they aren't as high as all those online estimators would make you think.

Re: Calorie needs [harapnuk] [ In reply to ]

Apr 28, 16 13:23

Post #9 of 23 (2759 views)

I just use MFP and insert my exercise calories manually from what I have determined to be accurate for my needs.

Ironman Certified Coach

Currently accepting limited number of new athletes

Re: Calorie needs [harapnuk] [ In reply to ]

Apr 28, 16 14:06

Post #10 of 23 (2702 views)

For running, I found that using the mid point between what Garmin shows (low) and Strava shows (high) gets me about the right number for the run. Example: Garmin - 300 kcals, Strava - 500 kcals, MFP gets 400 kcals. I found that using this approach seems to back into the actual weight loss if I assume that a 3500 kcal deficit does result in 1 lb of weight lost.

BTW, MFP seems to learn to estimate pretty well over time if you keep putting in your daily weight measurements.

For the bike, Kj+10% seems to be pretty reasonable.

Next races on the schedule: none at the moment

Re: Calorie needs [cmscat50] [ In reply to ]

Apr 28, 16 14:09

Post #11 of 23 (2699 views)

That's interesting question. I think that you're asking if say you run for 1hr and the HR watch shows 600 kcals burnt... do you credit yourself with additional 600 kcals of sustenance needed or do you subtract 200 kcals from this number since your starting daily caloric requirement had already included those 200 kcals?

It's a great question... not sure. Wonder if the calories that a HR watch shows are the delta from your normal caloric needs during the duration of the exercise?

Next races on the schedule: none at the moment

Re: Calorie needs [PushThePace] [ In reply to ]

Apr 28, 16 18:32

Post #12 of 23 (2603 views)

PushThePace wrote:

I did a DEXA scan earlier this year and the one thing it did was give me my RMR (Resting Metabolic Rate) which is the value of calories you need to maintain the same weight. At the time I was 5'8" 150lbs and my RMR was 1533. I'm scheduled to go back in for a second scan now that I'm in the midst of training to see how much that has changed.

Now as said before by others, it's unique to everybody. Also, as you get fitter, loose fat mass and gain muscle you burn more calories for the same duration of exercise. Example: In January my 1 hour endurance ride burned 557 calories and now that I've dropped weight, gained muscle that same ride burns 613 calories. While it's not a huge variance (56 cals) over the course of the week it works out to be 560 calories (using 10h a week as an example). The same thing happens with the other activities as well so as you grow fitter ensure you pay close attention to these nuances. Learn your body's baseline and then every 4-6 weeks take a moment to look at any changes between similar sessions you do.

How does a DEXA scan measure your RMR??? I had one done a few yrs ago and IIRC the main info it gave me was % body fat. I've had my RMR measured but it was via breathing in and out through my mouth, with a clamp over my nose, while sitting quietly, i.e. the machine measures the amount of oxygen in your breath going in vs coming out. My RMR came out at 14.1 cal/lb or about 2540 cal at 180 lbs, 6'2", and about 10% fat. This value seems to work well as i've maintained my same weight ever since college.

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Re: Calorie needs [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]

Apr 28, 16 18:46

Post #13 of 23 (2594 views)

The RMR value is based on the caloric needs of your lean muscle. X amount of lean muscle needs Y amount of kj to maintain its composition. It's all in the 7 page report that the device spits out.

------
"Train so you have no regrets @ the finish line"

Re: Calorie needs [PushThePace] [ In reply to ]

Apr 28, 16 19:11

Post #14 of 23 (2562 views)

PushThePace wrote:

The RMR value is based on the caloric needs of your lean muscle. X amount of lean muscle needs Y amount of kj to maintain its composition. It's all in the 7 page report that the device spits out.

Ya but that method is using the cal/lb of muscle based on the needs of average people for whom a 2-mi walk is a "workout". Athletes who are constantly breaking down their muscles every day generally need a higher level of caloric intake, which is what the breathing in/out method measures. Your DEXA scan comes out at 1533 cal/150 lb = 10.2 lb body weight, which is what you often see quoted in general references, vs my result of 14.1 cal/lb.

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Re: Calorie needs [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]

Apr 28, 16 19:26

Post #15 of 23 (2553 views)

But RMR is the base ... Of course if you workout those calories also need replenishment. 1533 would be the intake on a day I didn't exercise. This is what I was advised of sonic that's wrong please do enlighten me further. I'll take all the information to the clinic with me when I visit in May.

My understanding is 1533 + any caloric burn from activity = total daily caloric needs to maintain weight. Weight loss happens when I keep a slight deficit.

------
"Train so you have no regrets @ the finish line"

Re: Calorie needs [PushThePace] [ In reply to ]

Apr 28, 16 19:58

Post #16 of 23 (2521 views)

PushThePace wrote:

But RMR is the base ... Of course if you workout those calories also need replenishment. 1533 would be the intake on a day I didn't exercise. This is what I was advised of sonic that's wrong please do enlighten me further. I'll take all the information to the clinic with me when I visit in May.

My understanding is 1533 + any caloric burn from activity = total daily caloric needs to maintain weight. Weight loss happens when I keep a slight deficit.

If you were a normal, mostly sedentary person, then 1533 would prob be about right but what i'm saying is i'd bet if you had the breath testing done, you'd find your RMR to be closer to 2100 cal/day b/c your muscles, being constantly on the mend much more than the average person, need more calories to rebuild. This is above and beyond the cals burned during your workouts. Is this explain clearer???

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Re: Calorie needs [jaretj] [ In reply to ]

Apr 29, 16 7:49

Post #17 of 23 (2390 views)

Jeretj is definitely overstepping the "not enough information to diagnose over the internet" boundary.

By assuming your 90 minute bike ride was 1000 kj, thats assuming you averaged 185 watts for the ride. Did you average exactly 185 watts?

By assuming you burned 300 calories, thats assuming you ran approximately 10 min/mi pace. Did you run 10 min/mi pace?

To show you how far off these numbers could be, I am your height and about 12 lbs heavier. I am a cyclist only, and consume 2900 calories + whatever I burned that day, in order to maintain my weight. I've been doing this for years, and when I want to lose weight for the approaching season, I eat around 2200 calories + whatever I burn.

On my off days, I eat 3500+ calories to maintain my weight. Probably because I'm catching up on house chores that I didn't do when I was riding.

Also, I work a sedentary job (work from home). I'm proof that BMR means nothing. And it may not mean anything for you, either.

jaretj wrote:

cmscat50 wrote:

So lately I've been doing some very heavy (for me) volume threatening the 1000TSS mark for SBR. Eating enough seems really hard!

So I'm led to believe that I need about 2500 calories doing no working out. I weigh about 150+ or 68-69kg at 5'-11".

Yesterday for example I did a triple. Swim 1 hour early, bike 90 mins with 2 x 20 lunch, run 30 mins late. So probably around 2500 calories burned doing SBR.

So can I assume yesterday I burned close to 5000 calories? Or do I need to take 2 hours of the "no working out" calories away (200 calories) and assume more like 4800? I know that's maybe splitting hairs a bit, but I'm slooooowly losing weight and feel like I never quit eating.

I'm at race weight and have over 4 months to my A race...lol. So would like to gain a pound or 2 in the meantime.

Thanks for any help.

At that weight you do not need 2500 a day with no workouts. You're more in the range of 1800 calories a day unless you are extremely active.
An hour swim is about 450-500 calories
90 min bike as you described is about 1000 calories
30 min run is about 300 calories

So 1800+500+1000+300=3600 to stay even. That would be for someone counting every single calorie they put in right down to the last M&M

-Physiojoe
Instagram: @thephysiojoe
Cycling coach, Elite racer on Wooster Bikewerks p/b Wootown Bagels

Re: Calorie needs [Physiojoe925] [ In reply to ]

Apr 29, 16 8:00

Post #18 of 23 (2367 views)

Not certain how you can say BMR means nothing....it is a critical starting point when determing caloric needs. BMR is different for everyone, so your anecdotal evidence about YOUR caloric needs and your weight doesn't mean much. Someone could have the exact same height / weight as you and still have a different BMR.

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"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

Re: Calorie needs [Physiojoe925] [ In reply to ]

Apr 29, 16 8:15

Post #19 of 23 (2356 views)

This is great info and I appreciate all the responses.

So can I truly take my rides and add 10% to the kj to get the calories I need to consume. For example my ride last weekend was like about and 3800kj. So can I therefore say that was a 4180 calorie ride (3800 x 1.1)?

So I would assume that your response above was a bit tongue-in-cheek, but I don't think I've ever run a 10 minute mile and I never ride 185 watts. So I understand that I'm probably burning more calories than many folks at my weight and therefore the interest in this discussion.

I also have no basis for this, but I'm certain I roast more calories swimming than the good swimmers! LOL. I'm working on that.

Thanks.

24 Hour World TT Champs-American record holder
Fat Bike Worlds - Race Director
Insta: chris.s.apex

Re: Calorie needs [cmscat50] [ In reply to ]

Apr 29, 16 15:25

Post #20 of 23 (2286 views)

cmscat50 wrote:

This is great info and I appreciate all the responses.

So can I truly take my rides and add 10% to the kj to get the calories I need to consume. For example my ride last weekend was like about and 3800kj. So can I therefore say that was a 4180 calorie ride (3800 x 1.1)?

So I would assume that your response above was a bit tongue-in-cheek, but I don't think I've ever run a 10 minute mile and I never ride 185 watts. So I understand that I'm probably burning more calories than many folks at my weight and therefore the interest in this discussion.

I also have no basis for this, but I'm certain I roast more calories swimming than the good swimmers! LOL. I'm working on that.

Thanks.

I don't believe I mentioned adding any percentage to your kj's. I simply suggested that your baseline (or BMR) may be much higher than others would lead you to believe.

-Physiojoe
Instagram: @thephysiojoe
Cycling coach, Elite racer on Wooster Bikewerks p/b Wootown Bagels

Re: Calorie needs [Power13] [ In reply to ]

Apr 29, 16 15:27

Post #21 of 23 (2285 views)

Power13 wrote:

Not certain how you can say BMR means nothing....it is a critical starting point when determing caloric needs. BMR is different for everyone, so your anecdotal evidence about YOUR caloric needs and your weight doesn't mean much. Someone could have the exact same height / weight as you and still have a different BMR.

Thanks for agreeing with me. I was replying to jaretj and reminding the OP that he may need far more calories than his BMR suggests.

-Physiojoe
Instagram: @thephysiojoe
Cycling coach, Elite racer on Wooster Bikewerks p/b Wootown Bagels

Re: Calorie needs [Physiojoe925] [ In reply to ]

Apr 29, 16 17:53

Post #22 of 23 (2242 views)

Physiojoe925 wrote:

Jeretj is definitely overstepping the "not enough information to diagnose over the internet" boundary.

By assuming your 90 minute bike ride was 1000 kj, thats assuming you averaged 185 watts for the ride. Did you average exactly 185 watts?

By assuming you burned 300 calories, thats assuming you ran approximately 10 min/mi pace. Did you run 10 min/mi pace?

To show you how far off these numbers could be, I am your height and about 12 lbs heavier. I am a cyclist only, and consume 2900 calories + whatever I burned that day, in order to maintain my weight. I've been doing this for years, and when I want to lose weight for the approaching season, I eat around 2200 calories + whatever I burn.

On my off days, I eat 3500+ calories to maintain my weight. Probably because I'm catching up on house chores that I didn't do when I was riding.

Also, I work a sedentary job (work from home). I'm proof that BMR means nothing. And it may not mean anything for you, either.

[/quote Physiojoe925]

While I respect your take on this I don't entirely agree about overstepping bounds. At worst it provoked though.

I actually thought 1000kj was a close guess to his 1200 that he reported after the fact. I don't know where people get the kj+10%. I'm more like kj -10%. For a hard ride I'm normally near 650 kj an hour, that would be averaging about 20-21mph.
-
Again he did not specify his run effort, I don't know him from Adam and I guessed low mainly cuz I read 3 miles and not 30 minutes. Personally I think 100 cals/mile is high but I see how that can be argued.

To counter your point about your 2900 calories - I'm more like 1500 calories + whatever I burned that day and I'm only 10 Kg less than the OP. That's with me actually weighing every bit of the food I eat. (yes I know OCD) When I want to lose weight I need to net near 1250 calories a day

Re: Calorie needs [jaretj] [ In reply to ]

Apr 29, 16 19:15

Post #23 of 23 (2208 views)

jaretj wrote:

Physiojoe925 wrote:

Jeretj is definitely overstepping the "not enough information to diagnose over the internet" boundary.

By assuming your 90 minute bike ride was 1000 kj, thats assuming you averaged 185 watts for the ride. Did you average exactly 185 watts?

By assuming you burned 300 calories, thats assuming you ran approximately 10 min/mi pace. Did you run 10 min/mi pace?

To show you how far off these numbers could be, I am your height and about 12 lbs heavier. I am a cyclist only, and consume 2900 calories + whatever I burned that day, in order to maintain my weight. I've been doing this for years, and when I want to lose weight for the approaching season, I eat around 2200 calories + whatever I burn.

On my off days, I eat 3500+ calories to maintain my weight. Probably because I'm catching up on house chores that I didn't do when I was riding.

Also, I work a sedentary job (work from home). I'm proof that BMR means nothing. And it may not mean anything for you, either.

[/quote Physiojoe925]

While I respect your take on this I don't entirely agree about overstepping bounds. At worst it provoked though.

I actually thought 1000kj was a close guess to his 1200 that he reported after the fact. I don't know where people get the kj+10%. I'm more like kj -10%. For a hard ride I'm normally near 650 kj an hour, that would be averaging about 20-21mph.
-
Again he did not specify his run effort, I don't know him from Adam and I guessed low mainly cuz I read 3 miles and not 30 minutes. Personally I think 100 cals/mile is high but I see how that can be argued.

To counter your point about your 2900 calories - I'm more like 1500 calories + whatever I burned that day and I'm only 10 Kg less than the OP. That's with me actually weighing every bit of the food I eat. (yes I know OCD) When I want to lose weight I need to net near 1250 calories a day

I weigh every bit of food I eat as well, and track calories on a daily basis (anal bike racer). I wouldn't be giving my opinion on this if I didn't have personal data from years of tracking calories and weight (going back to the year 2000 as a 13 year old). Of course, I'm doing 900+ kj/hr during training rides, but that doesn't explain the high BMR that I require to maintain weight.

Your 1500/day baseline makes a bit more sense when you consider how light you are- if you're 10kg less than the op, you're something like 14 kg less than me- let's say I have around 22 lbs of muscle more than you (maybe a bit high), and muscle burns around 40 cals/day/lb. That's 880 cals right there.

-Physiojoe
Instagram: @thephysiojoe
Cycling coach, Elite racer on Wooster Bikewerks p/b Wootown Bagels

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