Because sex and gender aren't the same thing. One is biology, the other is culture.

Nonsense. If that were true, people wouldn't be mutilating themselves in order to match their sex with their gender, would they?

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Thank goodness for all those studies, because otherwise we'd have no idea whether a dog was under the belief that it is a human.

Sounds like you don't know the difference between knowing and believing or guessing.

~Matt

  
I'm not aware of any scientific test that shows any physical/biological cause or indicator of transgenderism.

There are many studies showing the differences between a male and female brain. Most of the differences we can identify physically but have very little idea about function or reason for the differences. IT would make complete sense that if an opposite gendered brain developed, in part or wholly, in a body that you would have transgenderism.

Much like the dog, we only have the communication of the subject to demonstrate the issue.

Again, see above, I don't believe that is correct. We may lack the ability to identify the differences in the brain without an autopsy but I suspect we can identify some of these differences if they exist. We are currently attempting to do brain scans and finding "Transexual" brains. HERE's one I found.

Maybe that will change someday, but right now, I think I'm accurately portraying the reality.

And you may be. My point is, and has always been, that we simply don't know and have evidence for the potential to support both possibilities and possibly some we don't even know about yet. To jump to one or the other conclusion and proclaim "This is the way it is", is simply little more then opinion and even opinion that ignores evidence.

~Matt

No, it sounds like you are ignorant of the various ways of knowing, and have stunted your thought process by fetishizing scientific studies.

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

No, it sounds like you are ignorant of the various ways of knowing, and have stunted your thought process by fetishizing scientific studies.

I know that "Well I believe it to be this way" is not a way of knowing.

~Matt

That's the exact proposal of the OP. Unfortunately, as we have explained, it actually isn't always so cut and dried. Not to mention, not too many establishments have instant genetic decoders available so you can tell the chromosomal identity of a person trying to use the bathroom.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

Not replying to you directly, just replying to the last post in the thread. Why isn't anyone looking at the obvious way to determine the gender of a person? If a person has xx chromosomes that person is female. xy.. male... easy!

Because XX and XY determine whether you have a penis or a vagina, however it is only one of many factors in determining brain development. It's the brain that drives ones sexuality, not whether one has a penis or a vagina.

~Matt

Sexuality really isn't the issue here.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

Sexuality really isn't the issue here.

If the law says you can only go to a bathroom that matches your birth certificate and you change your gender because of your sexuality then yes, sexuality is certainly part of the issue.

~Matt

I don't think the word "sexuality" really has much to do with which bits you have, and people don't generally change gender because of sexuality. Sexuality refers to your feelings, desires, and preferences regarding sex. Do you like it rough, do you like role playing, do you like men or women or both, do you like it often or just on occasion, etc.

I don't think many people change their gender because of sexuality. In other words, I don't think there are lots of people who say, gee, I'm homosexual, so I have to change my physical bits or dress like the opposite sex.

Gender identity and sexual preference/sexuality are distinct items.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

Sexuality refers to your feelings, desires, and preferences regarding sex.

If a person with a penis prefers having a penis put into them in the form of a vagina rather then putting their penis somewhere else I would consider that a feeling, desire and preference so the term sexuality applies.

~Matt

You're really reaching. I haven't heard any transgender person claim that they want to change their physical parts because they think they'll prefer to have sex that way. They want to identify as the opposite sex or change their physical parts because they simply feel like they're "supposed to be" that other sex.

Many transgender people don't ever desire to physically change their parts, which is why there is an entire subset called transsexual.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

Wow. See where this is going? Sexuality could transcend natural human body types. What if someone preferred having a penis put into them in a vagina located somewhere besides between the legs -- maybe on their foot? If their brain has developed that way, and science makes it possible, who's to say no.

I'm sure I've now created a new fantasy for the foot-fetish guys. The beautiful world of modern sexuality.

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It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev

You're really reaching.

I don't think that saying ones sexuality is involved in ones decision to change change ones gender is reaching at all. I actually think stating that ones sexuality is not involved in such a decision is not having much of a grasp on the decision making process at all.

I haven't heard any transgender person claim that they want to change their physical parts because they think they'll prefer to have sex that way.

No because clearly they are horrified by the prospect so that is why they have their gender changed...really this is your argument? If one thinks they should have a vagina rather then a penis does it not stand to reason that in at least some of those cases, I would argue most of them, that the person making such a decision takes into consideration the act of sex and their sexual preferences?

They want to identify as the opposite sex or change their physical parts because they simply feel like they're "supposed to be" that other sex.

Do you think it's possible that part of the reason they "Think they are supposed to be that way" is because the idea of, sexual preference for, desire for, feelings for etc etc are also that way?

Essentially what you're attempting to say is the decision is made like this

Person 1 "Gee I have a penis, I think I should have a vagina".
Person 2 "Well do you prefer the idea of having a penis in your vagina over having your penis in a vagina?"
Person 1 "Gee never really thought about it. Not really part of my decision. I just think I should have a vagina."

If anyone is reaching with the above, it's you.

Many transgender people don't ever desire to physically change their parts, which is why there is an entire subset called transsexual.

Which is not what we are talking about so I'm not sure how it applies. A person who wants to look like a female is not the same thing as a person who wants to have the same genitalia as a female which is not the same as a male that wants to look like a male, keep the penis and have sex with other males.

All of these are different, all have to do with sexuality as they all deal with sexual preferences, feelings and desires surrounding sex.

~Matt

If their brain has developed that way, and science makes it possible, who's to say no.

As absurd as your point is, can you answer the question?

Let's say a person's brain develops in such a way that their brain truly believes that their vagina should be on their foot. You have two, well three options.

1) Alter the brain pathways in such a way that their brain believes the vagina should be where it is at.
2) Alter the body to place the vagina where the brain thinks it should be
3) Do nothing and let the person live life with the disassociation.

I tend to think that letting people suffer through something that is entirely fixable is a bit in humane. If we can't fix the brain, but can fix the physical why would you not fix the physical?

~Matt

Now we are getting somewhere. There another way, a forth way, to the three you have proposed.

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It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev

In all the discussions I've seen in the media, here in the LR, etc, sex, the type of sex a person wants to have, etc. has not been the core issue behind gender identity issues. Who you want to have sex with and how are separate items (although certainly interrelated) from what gender you feel like you are.



Taking the issue into consideration is one thing. Making a change because of a desire to have sex through a different organ is another, and not a motivation I've heard put forth in any discussion. As I pointed out, many (maybe most) transgendered people don't ever go through any surgical alterations.



Not in general, no. How would a person even know what it's supposed to feel like to have sex through a different organ?



You dramatically misunderstand transgenders and gender identity issues if you think the primary concern is about thinking you're supposed to have a vagina instead of a penis. The issues is feeling like you're supposed to be a different sex. In total. Not just dangly bits. And not just for sex.



Well, somewhat true. The first two might both be examples of transgenders (so long as we're discounting cross dressing), and the last is an example of a homosexual. If we're talking about transgendered people, which is what this thread is about, then both of the first two fall under that category.



I think the last is obviously an issue of sexuality and sexual preference. I think the first two are issues dealing with self perceptions of what gender/sex you're supposed to be, and not typically an issue of sexuality or preference. You can be a transgendered person who switches from male to female. You can then prefer sex with either women or men. It's not like a man who becomes a woman also necessarily prefers sex with men.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

You expect too much of your fellow LR denizens.

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It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev

Tiresias would say you'd probably prefer female...