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Re: will I go sub 3 in my next marathon? [DaveRoche] [ In reply to ]
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I think that this was some excellent advice. I had 3 hours and 11 minutes to digest it today.
So... do you recommend doing long runs at the target pace every other week? Do them in addition to the tempo run that same week? I usually keep the tempo runs under 12 miles which includes a couple of miles of w/u and w/d?

Next races on the schedule: none at the moment
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Re: will I go sub 3 in my next marathon? [alex_korr] [ In reply to ]
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Kudos for going for it! I also think that you're right that DaveRoche's advice above is the best. Need more long runs with some quality for Marathon training.

One thing I should note thought - this being the first time I've actually felt I executed the marathon to the best of my abilities: I've always been afraid of giving up to much in the early stages, and I've probably pushed to hard the first half. This time is the first I've actually managed to REALLY hold back the first 25k. (I had this mental thing saying I was not allowed to "let go" before passing 25-26-27k).

During that first part - I kept thinking if I'd get back the minutes I slowed down. I think in the end, I did. I wasnt able to pick up the pace very substantially, but I did have the fastest portion of my race from 25 - 35k (I ran that 10k-stretch about 1min faster than the previous 10-k stretches). From k 35 - 42 was hard, and probably where I most suffered from lack of quality long runs, but I was still able to keep the wheels on or atleast 3 of 4 wheels). The last kilometres ( save for 1 k where there was a pretty hard climg) were still about as fast as the first 2-3 of my marathon (around 4:30min/k pace), and when I finished i was 100% confident that I would not have been able to squeeze another second due to pacing.

http://tpks.ws/2zPn




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Re: will I go sub 3 in my next marathon? [lovegoat] [ In reply to ]
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Way to run alex_korr and lovegoat and for putting your goals out there.
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Re: will I go sub 3 in my next marathon? [lovegoat] [ In reply to ]
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Nice! Wish I was able to clock a 174bpm avg for a marathon (I'd probably be dead if I tried it). A pretty cool 2 loop course - what's the name of the race? I go to Norway sometimes, never get that not that far north though, but it might be a fun Spring trip! How was the weather that day.

Here's my run. Getting out of bed this morning was not fun :)

Next races on the schedule: none at the moment
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Re: will I go sub 3 in my next marathon? [alex_korr] [ In reply to ]
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It's the Bergen City Marathon - yearly event since 2012. Pretty cool race, and a really nice venue (should say I'm based - my home town:)) I can really recommmend this if going to Norway for the first time. You run twice around the city centre, some nice cobbled-sections through the old part of town, and parts of the route with a really nice view. Only drawback - if you dont like hiills - is that there is abit of elevation (but not too bad - winner ran 2:26 this year - which is so fast I can't even imagine doing it!)

We had perfect weather this year - light clouds/some sun, around 10 C and no winds.
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Re: will I go sub 3 in my next marathon? [alex_korr] [ In reply to ]
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All things considered you held it together pretty well!

One thing that jumps out from the details - you were headed out seeking 3:04 and as you said hit the half under 1:32, but your first 5 miles were at 6:42 (2:56) pace, with the first mile and a half apparently uphill. The debt incurred by that is very tough (to say the least) to come back from. Easy to say and hard to do, but do you think if you'd let people go, tempered the adrenaline and stuck to 7 min pace right from the start it would have made a difference later on?

Regardless, congrats - rest up and recover well.
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Re: will I go sub 3 in my next marathon? [skip] [ In reply to ]
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You know, that's the weird part. I was following the 3:05 pacer, and frankly was simply running behind him for the first 10 miles or so without paying too much attention to what the watch was showing. Probably stupid of me. I remember the race clock was showing 1:32:07 when we crossed the 13.1 mat, and it was not until I got home when I realized that the guy must have gone out a tad too fast.

Well, it was a learning experience for sure. Yes, I think that had I run it smart, I'd probably would have come in at 3:09 or so. That sub 3 was not in the cards yesterday.

Next races on the schedule: none at the moment
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Re: will I go sub 3 in my next marathon? [alex_korr] [ In reply to ]
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Well, it was a learning experience for sure. Yes, I think that had I run it smart, I'd probably would have come in at 3:09 or so. That sub 3 was not in the cards yesterday.

Are you going to try and go under 3 hours later? It would be interesting to see what your training looks like as you try to take off 11 minutes.

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Re: will I go sub 3 in my next marathon? [alex_korr] [ In reply to ]
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I think some pace group leaders explicitly try to bank some time, and others try to be precisely on (or say 2 seconds under) the desired average throughout. The latter is better I reckon, unless there is a lot of terrain involved that they don't account for properly. But it requires a pacer who "knows" he himself is not going to slow down no matter what, vs. one who might be tempted to bank just to make sure he crosses the finish line at the appointed time. I only ever ran with a pace group once, long ago, and the guy was very up front about his plan (which was the stick to the desired average approach) and he was vocal about how effectively we were doing that at every mile marker. He nailed it, but I think he also would have immediately informed everyone if he felt he was not going to hold it.
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Re: will I go sub 3 in my next marathon? [Sanuk] [ In reply to ]
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I think that the next step is to get into the 3:05 territory. Probably won't be able to do run focused training until November.

Changes clearly needed to be made:

1. Up the weekly mileage. 50 mpw is not enough, so I'll shoot for perhaps 60 mpw during the next marathon build cycle.
2. Improve the quality of the long runs. They need to be done faster. I'll shoot for something like that this for next build:
week a. Mon - 8 miles easy, Tue - hill repeats/7-8 miles, Wed - off, Thu - 7 miles easy, Fri - 8 miles easy, Saturday - 6 miles easy. Sun - long run at pace (increasing from say 14 to 20 at the end)
week b Mon - 6 miles easy, Tue - hill repeats/7-8 miles, Wed - off, Thu - tempo (increasing from 8 to 12 miles), Fri - 7 miles easy, Saturday - 10 miles easy. Sun - 10 miles easy.

Assuming a 16 week build, this should give me 8 tempo runs, 8 long runs, 8 strength builders. Hopefully that will get me there.

Next races on the schedule: none at the moment
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Re: will I go sub 3 in my next marathon? [alex_korr] [ In reply to ]
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I'm glad you posted this as I was following the last few days. I just ran my 2nd marathon Sunday and was similar to you in your training. I'm only 33 years old, never ran track or anything but I've been in the tri biz for the last 10yrs. I ran my first marathon 2 yrs ago and went 2:59:4x. My fastest half before that was like a 1:27 I think. My goal for my first full was to BQ, run a 3:05 and be really happy. I went sub 3 and was obviously stoked.

This year I started training hard in January and was into the mid 40's for my weekly mileage by March but probably averaged around 35mpw on 4 runs/week. I ran my mid week runs at very focused intervals and kept them hard and fast, then my long runs on the weekend. I wanted to go sub 2:59 but I was thinking it was somewhat fluky since I wasn't putting in a ton of mileage like so many say you should. I was hoping to go 6:45/mi and hang on. And even in horrible conditions (rain and wind) I did! I went 2:57:17 officially, but the course was 26.4 (no idea why) My Garmin had me at 2:55:50. I went out nailing solid 6:39's and 6:40's until that dreaded 20 mile mark when I tried to hold 6:50's for dear life. I felt great up to 18 and honestly wasn't worried I went out too fast because I felt fresh and good.

So the more mileage thing may work for many people. I know it's not for me. I don't run on back to back days except an a.m session on Tues then an afternoon session on Wed. I never felt my body could hold up to more and more miles and I've never been injured so it's working for me. I'm also obviously swimming, biking and lifting so with the time I have, 4 days/week and around 10 miles average per run worked for me. My long slow runs on the weekends were easy for me at a 7:45/mi pace and I felt real good afterwards. Now, I can barely move haha. It's gonna be a few days before anything real happens haha.
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Re: will I go sub 3 in my next marathon? [alex_korr] [ In reply to ]
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Alex,

I read on ST a long time ago that your true marathon pace is a reflection on your training 1 year to 18 months beforehand. Now that you've got a couple marathons under your belt, it's time to take advantage of your base. Don't lose too much of your weekly run volume this summer. Use the BarryP ABC/123 basics until your next marathon build.

Follow something like this:

M: Rest
T: 6 miles easy
W: 9 mile workout (3 x 2 mile tempo, working towards 2 x 3 mile tempo runs)
T: 6 miles easy
F: 9 mile run w/ some MP miles or do a progression run
S: 6 miles easy
S: 12 - 15 mile long run (run about :45 slower than MP one week and fast finish the other week)

If you are biking and swimming this summer, do your biking on easy run days and your swimming on Mondays and your 9 mile run days.

What I do: http://app.strava.com/athletes/345699
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Re: will I go sub 3 in my next marathon? [alex_korr] [ In reply to ]
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alex_korr wrote:
I think that the next step is to get into the 3:05 territory. Probably won't be able to do run focused training until November.

Changes clearly needed to be made:

1. Up the weekly mileage. 50 mpw is not enough, so I'll shoot for perhaps 60 mpw during the next marathon build cycle.
2. Improve the quality of the long runs. They need to be done faster. I'll shoot for something like that this for next build:
week a. Mon - 8 miles easy, Tue - hill repeats/7-8 miles, Wed - off, Thu - 7 miles easy, Fri - 8 miles easy, Saturday - 6 miles easy. Sun - long run at pace (increasing from say 14 to 20 at the end)
week b Mon - 6 miles easy, Tue - hill repeats/7-8 miles, Wed - off, Thu - tempo (increasing from 8 to 12 miles), Fri - 7 miles easy, Saturday - 10 miles easy. Sun - 10 miles easy.

Assuming a 16 week build, this should give me 8 tempo runs, 8 long runs, 8 strength builders. Hopefully that will get me there.


Be careful, I think 60mpw is about the point where you have to start doubling up on runs. With singles at that mileage I think the runs just beat you down too much to ever really recover. I have run up to 80mpw on singles and it was counter-productive compared to running 60mpw on singles or 80mpw on doubles.

I am not huge on the "strength builders". The key workouts for marathon training IMO are the long run, the tempo run, and the midweek long run. I prefer doing a long run every weekend, year-round. Just crank out 16 miles every weekend, then in the 8 weeks before the race, do 3-4 20 milers. In your final marathon build, I like the McMillan approach of slowly increasing a midweek long run up to about 15 miles. I am not sure what you mean by an 8 to 12 mile tempo...runners do not use the word tempo to describe a pace you could hold for 12 miles (unless you are Olympic Trials caliber). A tempo run should be run at a pace you can sustain for around 1 hour, but you only run at that pace for 20 to max 40 minutes. An 8 to 12 mile run with speedwork would be more of a marathon pace workout.

Here is my 2 cents:
M: rest
Tu: 8 miles with 20 to 40 minutes tempo. If you are feeling especially peppy, do a track workout instead (800 or mile repeats)
W: 6 miles easy
Th: mid-week long run, starting at 8 and slowly increasing to 15 in your peak week. Start easy and accelerate to marathon pace if peppy
F: 6 miles easy
Sa: 8 miles easy
Su: 16 miles. In last 8 weeks, alternate 16 one week, 20 the next. Make sure to run these easy enough that you are fresh by Tuesday. I personally do NOT recommend marathon pace in the long run, though others disagree. I usually run 1 to 2 minutes slower than marathon pace, basically just a nice cruise.

Run this program for months on end and you will break 3 hrs before you know it.
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Re: will I go sub 3 in my next marathon? [alex_korr] [ In reply to ]
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alex_korr wrote:
I think that this was some excellent advice. I had 3 hours and 11 minutes to digest it today.
So... do you recommend doing long runs at the target pace every other week? Do them in addition to the tempo run that same week? I usually keep the tempo runs under 12 miles which includes a couple of miles of w/u and w/d?

FWIW, I ran my last sub 3 at age 47, 8 weeks after an IM. I come from a running background but never ran high mileage (most marathons off of 40 mpw or less, a bunch of sub 3s and most other marathons under 3:10, some on as little as 11 mpw average - ok, injured, but did aerobic volume swimming and biking). There are all sorts of programs out there; you just have to figure out what works for you. For us low-mileage types, the Printer guy had it right - you have to do long runs at goal marathon pace or slightly faster and be able to nail them. Yasso 800s and sub 1:25 half marathons are indicators but not guarantees that you can do it (they are more of a litmus test - if you can't do those, you probably don't have the speed endurance to run sub 3).

I typically liked to have 3-5 20 milers in my leadup to the marathon, mostly 3 rather than 5. I had several variations: the build (first 5M at 7:30, next 5M at 7:15, next at 7:00, last at 6:45 or faster), the steady (2M w/u, 16M at 6:45ish, 2M c/d), or "the test" (2M w/u, 16M at 6:30 or faster, 2M c/d). This last one, though, was fairly taxing, and I should also say I was aiming for sub 2:50.

As for pacers, I joined the sub 3 group in my last sub-3 marathon (the 2009 CIM), and the pacer was a well-known ultra guy, Kevin Sawchuk. He did a great job pacing the group of roughly 50, hitting 1:29:30 for the first half. At around mile 18, though, he told the people remaining that he had had the flu and wasn't feeling it, but we had 25 seconds in the bank, so if you had anything left go for it. A couple of other guys and I took off, but we were likely the only ones from the group who got the sub 3, as I went 2:59:54. That was a nail biter; mile 25 was a 7:05, and I had to push for all I was worth in the last 1.2 to hit the goal.

Not to debate high mileage vs low mileage, but one consideration is longevity in the sport. I never ran high milesage, so probably never achieved my genetic potential, but I'm still relatively speedy at 53 (not to mention CAN still run AT ALL), so there's that. I don't know many high-mileage guys from back in the day who can still run (and/or WANT to run). There are a few outliers, but very few.

BTW, I was never really fast (never broke 35 for 10K) but seemed to have decent lactate threshold (PRs 57:32 for 10 miles, 1:17:51 for 13.1), so running 6:45-6:50 pace was not difficult. That's really the key, especially if you're a low-mileage runner - if you can hold low 6:00 pace for over an hour, you don't need a ton of mileage to go sub 3.

Once I get over this IM obsession, I'll go back to open marathons. A good friend is trying to talk me into doing Big Sur next year, a race I've run 9 times but last in 2011. I think it's time to go back.

Ian
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