This could be my OCD kicking in, but just wondering. I am prepping for my daughters upcoming draft-legal races which are very short, the bike portion is only 6 miles. The courses are normally pretty flat and in good condition, kind of like a crit circuit. I have some tubular Zipp 404s and 303s as well as a set of American Classic tubeless. There are some weight difference, but no more than 100 grams among them. I am concerned about flats because a flat would effectively end her race. What would you use for this particular type of races: Zipp 404 0r 303 tubulars or the AC tubeless?
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Re: Tubulars or tubeless for short races [dalava]
[ In reply to ]
I've been pursuing speed for a long time out of tires and have used both clinchers and tubulars. In my opinion, as long as you use good choices for tires such as Vittoria Corsa for tubulars or Conti GP4000sII (with latex tubes) for clinchers, they both pretty much have the same performance. I would say for short course, use the tubular option, glue them up well, and use latex sealant. All the flat's I've had in racing were on clinchers and getting pinch flats when hitting potholes. Tubulars rarely ever get that type of flat.
I think the clincher is easier for long course races where you would bring a spare innertube vs a whole spare tubular, otherwise I would have gone back to tubulars for racing.
I think the clincher is easier for long course races where you would bring a spare innertube vs a whole spare tubular, otherwise I would have gone back to tubulars for racing.
Re: Tubulars or tubeless for short races [dalava]
[ In reply to ]
I have gone tubeless for short races until I had my first flat. Have stayed with clinchers since.
Re: Tubulars or tubeless for short races [brymon68]
[ In reply to ]
This doesn't seem to make sure: so you are saying that tubeless is MORE prone to flat?
Re: Tubulars or tubeless for short races [dalava]
[ In reply to ]
If I can ride (albeit slower!) on a flat tubular, I'm sure your daughter can, given less weight. So if she was unlucky enough to flat near the end of the bike, it won't be the end of her day.
29 years and counting
29 years and counting
Re: Tubulars or tubeless for short races [dalava]
[ In reply to ]
No. I'm saying having to fix a tubeless flat tire in a race situation proved to be more difficult than having to fix a clincher flat tire. At least in my experience.
Re: Tubulars or tubeless for short races [Jorgan]
[ In reply to ]
The correct question is which has lower rolling resistance, and which is more aero. Weight isn't relevant since there'e no time bonuses for primes, KOM or a sprint finish. Which makes the bike more stable?
Next, make sure you set the tire pressure correct according to her weight. It will handle better and roll faster with lower pressure optimal for her lighter weight.
Finally, if there's a significant cross wind, the 404 in front might be a bit much for her to handle depending on her weight and confidence.
Sine clinchers with a aero, low RR tire with latex tubes and sealant isn't one of your options, I'd go with the 404's, unless it's a technical course and she's more confident handling the 303's and need the better braking feel (aren't 303's allumium rim?)
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Next, make sure you set the tire pressure correct according to her weight. It will handle better and roll faster with lower pressure optimal for her lighter weight.
Finally, if there's a significant cross wind, the 404 in front might be a bit much for her to handle depending on her weight and confidence.
Sine clinchers with a aero, low RR tire with latex tubes and sealant isn't one of your options, I'd go with the 404's, unless it's a technical course and she's more confident handling the 303's and need the better braking feel (aren't 303's allumium rim?)
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Re: Tubulars or tubeless for short races [motoguy128]
[ In reply to ]
The 303s are also all carbon tubular.
Re: Tubulars or tubeless for short races [brymon68]
[ In reply to ]
brymon68 wrote:
No. I'm saying having to fix a tubeless flat tire in a race situation proved to be more difficult than having to fix a clincher flat tire. At least in my experience.ok, that makes more sense; but since this is a short race where fixing a flat is not an option. So I am looking for the more flat-proof solution first and foremost.
Re: Tubulars or tubeless for short races [Jorgan]
[ In reply to ]
Jorgan wrote:
If I can ride (albeit slower!) on a flat tubular, I'm sure your daughter can, given less weight. So if she was unlucky enough to flat near the end of the bike, it won't be the end of her day.That's the calculation I am doing too: either tubular or tubeless are good for avoiding pinch flats. Normally the courses are set up such that they are quite nice (in a recreational complex, industrial park or in a quite industrial campus) so the chance of getting punctures from road objects should be small and if it happens, the tubulars are safer and get her back to finish if it's not too far from the bike finish. In terms of aero and rolling resistance, the Zipp 404s (with Veloflex Arenberg 25c) and 303s (with Vittoria Pave 24c) definitely have the advantage of the American Classic Argent tubeless with Hutchinson Fusion 3 (23c).
So I am thinking tubular 404s if not too windy, and tubular 303s if it's windy with the proper tire pressure.
BTW, she's only 47kg, what would be the ideal tire pressure, or is there someplace I can look up and figure that out?
Re: Tubulars or tubeless for short races [dalava]
[ In reply to ]
If fixing a flat isn't an option, tubular with sealant would seem like a no brainer. That combo shouldn't flat unless it is a huge hole at which point the tire is damaged beyond repair anyway and she rides it in. So that means 303 or 404. Let her try out both and see which she feels comfy on.
Ian
Ian
Re: Tubulars or tubeless for short races [dalava]
[ In reply to ]
I would strongly consider the 303's with Specialized's S-Works Turbo Tubular in 24mm and add in some sealant.
http://www.specialized.com/us/en/ftb/road-tires/competitive-road-tires/sworks-turbo-tubular-allround-2
I don't know why they call it an "allround" as it looks like a racing tire considering it has a latex tube and 290tpi construction.
http://www.specialized.com/us/en/ftb/road-tires/competitive-road-tires/sworks-turbo-tubular-allround-2
I don't know why they call it an "allround" as it looks like a racing tire considering it has a latex tube and 290tpi construction.
Re: Tubulars or tubeless for short races [tkos]
[ In reply to ]
tkos wrote:
If fixing a flat isn't an option, tubular with sealant would seem like a no brainer. That combo shouldn't flat unless it is a huge hole at which point the tire is damaged beyond repair anyway and she rides it in. So that means 303 or 404. Let her try out both and see which she feels comfy on.Make sense. Do you add sealant before the race and how much?
Re: Tubulars or tubeless for short races [dalava]
[ In reply to ]
Yes, before the race. I think there have been a few topics on sealant, so i would do a quick search and find what people say. There was even an article on the main page about it (the different types). so you may wish to do a little reading then commit.
Ian
Ian
Re: Tubulars or tubeless for short races [dalava]
[ In reply to ]
I don't know how old your daughter is, or how experienced she is riding bikes on a circuit (presumably with some turns) with other riders around, but you probably want to factor in whichever wheels she feels comfortable on in those conditions. For instance, if she's never ridden carbon rims, the different braking, noise, and handling (especially if there's wind) may make her less confident on the bike.
In addition, not sure if the goal is to go as fast as possible at all costs (and risks), or whether it's to put out her best performance in terms of effort, execution and attitude. If the primary goal is the latter (which it ought to be for younger athletes imho), then that can mean using more dependable equipment that she is more comfortable on.
Finally, there are some fast rolling, reasonably durable tubeless tires out there from Schwalbe, IRC & Michelin.
In addition, not sure if the goal is to go as fast as possible at all costs (and risks), or whether it's to put out her best performance in terms of effort, execution and attitude. If the primary goal is the latter (which it ought to be for younger athletes imho), then that can mean using more dependable equipment that she is more comfortable on.
Finally, there are some fast rolling, reasonably durable tubeless tires out there from Schwalbe, IRC & Michelin.
Re: Tubulars or tubeless for short races [dalava]
[ In reply to ]
dalava wrote:
This could be my OCD kicking in, but just wondering. I am prepping for my daughters upcoming draft-legal races which are very short, the bike portion is only 6 miles. The courses are normally pretty flat and in good condition, kind of like a crit circuit. I have some tubular Zipp 404s and 303s as well as a set of American Classic tubeless. There are some weight difference, but no more than 100 grams among them. I am concerned about flats because a flat would effectively end her race. What would you use for this particular type of races: Zipp 404 0r 303 tubulars or the AC tubeless?Go tubulars, if you glue it right for a triathlon [leave a 1.5 " unglued section opposite the stem] , anyone can change a tubular tire in 1 minute. Lots of good vids on youtube for gluing and tubular change mid-race.
res, non verba
Re: Tubulars or tubeless for short races [vjohn]
[ In reply to ]
vjohn wrote:
I don't know how old your daughter is, or how experienced she is riding bikes on a circuit (presumably with some turns) with other riders around, but you probably want to factor in whichever wheels she feels comfortable on in those conditions. For instance, if she's never ridden carbon rims, the different braking, noise, and handling (especially if there's wind) may make her less confident on the bike. In addition, not sure if the goal is to go as fast as possible at all costs (and risks), or whether it's to put out her best performance in terms of effort, execution and attitude. If the primary goal is the latter (which it ought to be for younger athletes imho), then that can mean using more dependable equipment that she is more comfortable on.
Finally, there are some fast rolling, reasonably durable tubeless tires out there from Schwalbe, IRC & Michelin.
Just an update on this topic after my daughter's first race this weekend: the race in Richmond was held during a downpour, so I went with a set of tubeless alloy rim wheelset with Schwalbe Pro One 23mm tires running at 80psi. I think it was a good choice because the course has some fast turns as well as technical sections. She felt comfortable with the braking and was in the front of her pack most of the times to avoid any crashes which happened to a few riders due to slippery roads. She did well and averaged almost 24mph for the 10k bike leg, quite fast for a wet race.
Re: Tubulars or tubeless for short races [dalava]
[ In reply to ]
Could go lower with tyre pressure, given her weight - especially in wet conditions. I'm 67kg and ride 85-90psi, my 48kg girlfriend rides at 75psi and neither of us pinch-flat.
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Re: Tubulars or tubeless for short races [tessar]
[ In reply to ]
tessar wrote:
Could go lower with tyre pressure, given her weight - especially in wet conditions. I'm 67kg and ride 85-90psi, my 48kg girlfriend rides at 75psi and neither of us pinch-flat.Yeah, I wasn't entirely sure. She's about the same as your girlfiriend, so I will run lower next time in the wet, and also lower in the dry too, maybe at 80-85.
dalava wrote:
vjohn wrote:
I don't know how old your daughter is, or how experienced she is riding bikes on a circuit (presumably with some turns) with other riders around, but you probably want to factor in whichever wheels she feels comfortable on in those conditions. For instance, if she's never ridden carbon rims, the different braking, noise, and handling (especially if there's wind) may make her less confident on the bike. In addition, not sure if the goal is to go as fast as possible at all costs (and risks), or whether it's to put out her best performance in terms of effort, execution and attitude. If the primary goal is the latter (which it ought to be for younger athletes imho), then that can mean using more dependable equipment that she is more comfortable on.
Finally, there are some fast rolling, reasonably durable tubeless tires out there from Schwalbe, IRC & Michelin.
Just an update on this topic after my daughter's first race this weekend: the race in Richmond was held during a downpour, so I went with a set of tubeless alloy rim wheelset with Schwalbe Pro One 23mm tires running at 80psi. I think it was a good choice because the course has some fast turns as well as technical sections. She felt comfortable with the braking and was in the front of her pack most of the times to avoid any crashes which happened to a few riders due to slippery roads. She did well and averaged almost 24mph for the 10k bike leg, quite fast for a wet race.
Nice! 24mph is a good pace.
I have the Schwalbe one on my rain bike and the grip in the wet is superb
Thanx for the update
res, non verba