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Re: The US: "Do as we say." [Casey] [ In reply to ]
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How do you think we would have reacted if another country invaded the U.S in the days of slavery, and "forced" us to abolish the practice.

Who said anything about an invasion? I thought we were talking about a comment made from one of our state department people regarding the "rights" of Saudi Arabian women. Slight difference there.
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Re: The US: "Do as we say." [Casey] [ In reply to ]
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"The point was more how we would feel if other countries tried to "influence" our choices. I don't think we would take it too well and would likely tell them to mind their own business. "

The French and English do this all the time. Canada too. Nobody calls it imperialism unless it's us.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: The US: "Do as we say." [Doc H6llyw66d] [ In reply to ]
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I think the most interesting thing was the feedback they gave her, why are we making things worse for the average women in Iraq if we are so interested in women's rights. Hughes had nothing except the standard Saddam line for that one. If you remember that woman Bush touted in that State of the Union speech as the model of a woman's role in Iraq, she said she is leaving Iraq if they accept the constitution they have submitted to the voters.

http://slate.msn.com/id/2127102/
Hughes is simply the third spin person in a row Bush picked who's going to fail to convince the Arab world to listen to us as we ignore them on Palestinians and Iraq.
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Re: The US: "Do as we say." [SWoo] [ In reply to ]
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"why are we making things worse for the average women in Iraq"

"she said she is leaving Iraq if they accept the constitution they have submitted to the voters. "



So the Iraqis exercise their newly discovered democratic rights to vote for their own Constitution, and somehow it's the U.S. that's making it worse for women? Maybe they should be pissed at the rest of their society that wrote the Constitution the way it is, and looks set to vote on it the way it is. I love how people get pissed about us meddling, and then get pissed because we didn't meddle enough to ensure that their pet political project is taken care of.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: The US: "Do as we say." [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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You are making a deduction based upon a false premise. For those women, the implied logic is that under Saddam, the average Iraqi women was better off under secular rule than the situation after the US invaded and the Iraqis selected Islamic law for the rule of the land (or practically speaking every one who is not a Kurd). Your argument is that the Iraqis picked the constitution and therefore the US can't be to blame. Nice try. Then you can try to argue that these women are saying Saddam was benign (not!) or that Saddam had to be overthrown by us now, or that those nucular weapons or those wmd were bound to be spread, or those al qaeda in Iraq, or those 9/11 attackers were supported by Iraq wacked off conspiracy theories.
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Re: The US: "Do as we say." [SWoo] [ In reply to ]
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"Your argument is that the Iraqis picked the constitution and therefore the US can't be to blame."



No. My argument is that if you don't like us telling Saudis that they should embrace greater women's rights, then where do you get off saying we should make sure the Iraqis put women's rights into their supposedly freely chosen Constitution?

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: The US: "Do as we say." [Al P Duez] [ In reply to ]
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[reply]
[i]"I believe women should be free and equal participants in society.""..[/reply]

Too bad we don't really to it here

http://www.cfpa.org/publications/agenda/2005/pdf/EqualPay.pdf#search='pay%20equivalent%20pay%20men%20and%20women'
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Re: The US: "Do as we say." [squid] [ In reply to ]
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When are you going to stop spreading this canard? If women and minorities were paid substantially less than men for equal work, why would those greedy corporations not employ more of them? What a deal. The same work for less pay = more profit. Of course, this doesn't happen because the wage gap doesn't exist.

A review I found:
A new book, Why Men Earn More by Dr. Warren Farrell, shows we’ve been dead wrong: that for the same work, women earn more than men. His findings are based on a comprehensive review of government and other statistics.

Farrell is no right-wing misogynist. He ran for the Democrat nomination for California governor. He’s the only man ever elected three times to the board of the National Organization for Women in New York City. And no intellectual lightweight, the Financial Times named him one of the world’s top 100 thought leaders.

The book’s main message is good news for women: that if women do one or more of the 25 things men more often do to earn more money, women can earn more than men.

Farrell does not encourage nor discourage women from doing these 25 things: “Each of the 25 usually requires trading quality of life for money. I just want women and men to be aware of their options so they can craft a life rather than just accept what drops in their lap.”

The 25 can be reduced to three:

1. Choose careers that pay more. Because of supply and demand, you’ll earn more by choosing a job that:

· is in an unpleasant environment (prison guard vs. childcare worker)

· requires harder-to-attain skills (hard science vs. liberal arts)

· requires longer work hours (executive vs. administrative assistant)

· is unrewarding to most people (tax accountant vs. artist)

· demands financial risk (commission-based sales vs. government job)

· is inconvenient (traveling salesperson vs. teacher)

· is hazardous (police officer vs. librarian).

Many more men than women are willing to accept such jobs, even when women are paid more. For example, women sales engineers earn 143% of their male counterparts’ salary.

2. Put in more hours. That’s obvious but key. For example, Farrell cites research that “Fortune 1000 CEOs typically paid their dues with 60-90-hour workweeks for about 20 years. Yet women are less than half as likely as men to work more than 50 hours a week. And women are less likely to agree, every few years, to uproot themselves and their families to far-flung places to get the necessary promotions.”

Why? Because women, on average, are more involved in childrearing and other domestic activities. So, if a woman (or man) expects to rise to high-paying jobs, she may need to push harder to get hubby more involved in those activities, pay for childcare and domestic services, or decide not to have children.

I asked Farrell, “But shouldn’t workplaces not expect a woman (or a man) to work so many hours that family life is undercut?” He responded, “Yes, absolutely, but we must be gender-fair. If a male corporate manager chose to take care of his children, we’d applaud him but not expect the workplace to promote him as quickly. Yet when women do the same, women’s advocacy organizations often expect just that. Both men and women must accept the consequences of their choices.”

3. Be more productive in the hours you do work. If women produce as much as men, the good news is they will likely be rewarded. For example, women’s advocacy organizations complain that female professors earn less than male professors, but Farrell cites research that among professors who produce an equal number of journal articles, “men were likely to be paid the same or just slightly less than women.”

I asked Farrell, “But apart from the 25 non-sexist reasons men earn more, isn’t sexism still a factor?” He responded, “There are instances of discrimination against both women and men, but on average, no. If you knew you could hire a woman for less than an equivalent man, you’d hire women to get a price advantage over your competition. Do you think businesses so hate women that they hire more expensive men even though they’d lose so much money?”

In reflecting on Farrell’s book, I wonder whether, rather than denigrating men for earning more, we should respect them for willingness to do unpleasant but necessary work that few women will do such as roofer, coal miner, and prison guard, often working themselves into an early grave. There are four widows for every widower.

And men, you might learn a lesson from women and consider trading money for quality of life.


"I learned from the example of my father that the manner in which one endures what must be endured is more important than the thing that must be endured"

http://myfirstironman.blogspot.com
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Re: The US: "Do as we say." [thenewguy11] [ In reply to ]
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Why do you hate women?


---
"You'll find a slight squeeze on the hooter an excellent safety precaution, Miss Scrumptious."

"I can live with doubt and uncertainty and not knowing. I think it is much more interesting to live not knowing than to have answers that might be wrong." -- Richard Feynman
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Re: The US: "Do as we say." [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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Actually I'm not arguing anything except noticing that our current foreign policy is inept and bumbling, and Karen Hughes is more of the same.

With these well-meaning arguments, Hughes has provided the exact proofs for Bin Laden's claims about American motives. "It is stunning to the extent Hughes is helping bin Laden," says Robert Pape, a University of Chicago political scientist who has conducted extensive research into the motives of suicide terrorists and is the author of Dying to Win: The Strategic Logic of Suicide Terrorism. "If you set out to help bin Laden," he says, "you could not have done it better than Hughes."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1581655,00.html
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Re: The US: "Do as we say." [SWoo] [ In reply to ]
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"With these well-meaning arguments, Hughes has provided the exact proofs for Bin Laden's claims about American motives."

Well, even if that were true, I'm not going to ask that the administration run our policy goals and objectives through some sort of strainer to see if it might reinforce something bin Laden said. Bin Laden thinks the U.S. is out to spread our values? Guess what,...he's right. We think more rights for women is a good thing. We can't decide to keep our mouths shut on issues like that just because bin Laden might try to use them against us. Especially this type of statement which was not aggresive about the issue at all. you can't spend all your time worrying about whether or not your statements will provide ammo for lunatics.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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