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Army Captain on Detainee Abuse Inquiry
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klehner
Sep 28, 05 6:29
Post #1 of 13 (1005 views)
"Captain Fishback, 26, a West Point graduate from Michigan and son of a Vietnam War veteran, said he was troubled by the Army's response to his concerns, starting in the spring of 2004 after the abuses at Abu Ghraib became known, about the treatment of detainees that he believed violated the Geneva Conventions. "

He believes that the inquiry is more concerned about who talked to Human Rights Watch than who in the chain of command is responsible for the abuse. Pretty interesting article from someone who ain't a complainer, I'd think, and might be taking a big risk with his military career (to which he seems pretty committed):

"I'm convinced this is going in a direction that's not consistent with why we came forward," Captain Fishback said in a telephone interview from Fort Bragg, N.C., where he is going through Army Special Forces training. "We came forward because of the larger issue that prisoner abuse is systemic in the Army. I'm concerned this will take a new twist, and they'll try to scapegoat some of the younger soldiers. This is a leadership problem."

The whole article: http://www.nytimes.com/...dleeast/28abuse.html
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"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: Army Captain on Detainee Abuse Inquiry [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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Mad Jee
Sep 28, 05 6:42
Post #2 of 13 (995 views)
Here is the letter he wrote to Jon McCain asking why there don't seem to be clear standards.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/...AR2005092701527.html

Portside Athletics Blog
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Post deleted by Casey [ In reply to ]
Casey
Sep 28, 05 6:47
Post #3 of 13 (991 views)
Last edited by: Casey: Sep 28, 05 6:48
Re: Army Captain on Detainee Abuse Inquiry [Casey] [ In reply to ]
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klehner
Sep 28, 05 6:58
Post #4 of 13 (981 views)
In Reply To:
And of course I would be remiss to add, why do you hate America?
Not me, it's clearly Capt. Fishback who hates America.
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Re: Army Captain on Detainee Abuse Inquiry [Casey] [ In reply to ]
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mike419
Sep 28, 05 7:11
Post #5 of 13 (968 views)
However, it's not like the responses from those left of center aren't as predictable ...

BTW, you forgot to add that his seat is too high. :-)
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Re: Army Captain on Detainee Abuse Inquiry [SwBkRn44] [ In reply to ]
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ajfranke
Sep 28, 05 7:47
Post #6 of 13 (947 views)
The man is obviously confused. He clearly needs guidance, but what do you say to a man who states that using coercion to get information from detainees (not even POWs) is morally inconsistent with the Constitution?

Maybe, he should actually read the Constitution. Where does it say that unlawful combatants, or even lawful combatants, are entitled to Constitutional protection? Such a standard is without precedent in warfare.

I would also appreciate it if he would actually state a list of actual abuses he saw, rather than state a laundry list of possible abuses and state that he witnessed some of them. Which ones?

This guy is a West Point grad. He should have a more clear idea of appropriate conduct. His letter leaves me unsure whether he hasn't been taught appropriate standards, or he just hasn't learned them. Maybe some of the military types here can chime in with a more intelligent perspective than I can offer on that issue.

Either way, soldiers like this need to get their questions answered.
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Re: Army Captain on Detainee Abuse Inquiry [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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slowguy
Sep 28, 05 8:01
Post #7 of 13 (941 views)
Well, for one thing, Capt Fishback said he was just reporting what his Sgts had told him, and that he had only seen one example of what could be considered abuse. I think it's pretty standard for investigators to want to speak to the actual witnesses. I don't think asking him for their names is a witch hunt so much as a desire to get first hand accounts to support allegations that are more than a year old. Secondly, I'm interested in how a relatively junior officer who has only personally seen one incident of abuse can say that the Army has a systemic abuse problem in the Army as a whole.



That said, if this abuse was going on, I hope the people responsible are disciplined accordingly.
Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: Army Captain on Detainee Abuse Inquiry [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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minny expat
Sep 28, 05 8:05
Post #8 of 13 (934 views)
I wonder if he already has a line for Major?



==================================
but I can deal with the angels, cause it ain’t me they’re here to claim. it’s a good night for blowing ‘em off til some other day
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Re: Army Captain on Detainee Abuse Inquiry [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]
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klehner
Sep 28, 05 8:06
Post #9 of 13 (933 views)
In Reply To:
The man is obviously confused. He clearly needs guidance, but what do you say to a man who states that using coercion to get information from detainees (not even POWs) is morally inconsistent with the Constitution?

Maybe, he should actually read the Constitution. Where does it say that unlawful combatants, or even lawful combatants, are entitled to Constitutional protection? Such a standard is without precedent in warfare.


(from the nytimes.com article)

"But he said his commanders left the impression that the United States did not have to follow the Geneva Conventions when dealing with prisoners in Iraq, so he did not report the incidents.

That changed, he said, after he heard Mr. Rumsfeld testify to Congress after the Abu Ghraib abuses became public that the Conventions did apply in Iraq."

The Constitution says that treaties (such as the Geneva Convention) signed by the US are law. What he saw appeared to violate those treaties, given Rumsfeld's statement. He wanted clarification.
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Re: Army Captain on Detainee Abuse Inquiry [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]
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klehner
Sep 28, 05 8:09
Post #10 of 13 (928 views)
In Reply To:
I would also appreciate it if he would actually state a list of actual abuses he saw, rather than state a laundry list of possible abuses and state that he witnessed some of them. Which ones?


Yeah, I'm sure that his sergeants and he were just making up these abuses; they didn't really witness them:

"In separate statements to the human rights organization, Captain Fishback and the two sergeants described abuses by soldiers in the 82nd Airborne Division, including beatings of Iraqi prisoners, exposing them to extremes of hot and cold, stacking prisoners in human pyramids, and depriving them of sleep at Camp Mercury, a forward operating base near Falluja. The abuses reportedly took place between September 2003 and April 2004, before and during the abuses at the Abu Ghraib prison near Baghdad. "
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"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: Army Captain on Detainee Abuse Inquiry [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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klehner
Sep 28, 05 8:16
Post #11 of 13 (922 views)
In Reply To:
Well, for one thing, Capt Fishback said he was just reporting what his Sgts had told him, and that he had only seen one example of what could be considered abuse. I think it's pretty standard for investigators to want to speak to the actual witnesses. I don't think asking him for their names is a witch hunt so much as a desire to get first hand accounts to support allegations that are more than a year old. Secondly, I'm interested in how a relatively junior officer who has only personally seen one incident of abuse can say that the Army has a systemic abuse problem in the Army as a whole.



That said, if this abuse was going on, I hope the people responsible are disciplined accordingly.


Here's the Human Rights Watch report, with the actual statements of the Capt. and the two sergeants: http://hrw.org/reports/2005/us0905/

Perhaps that will address your interest in how this junior officer can say there was a systemic abuse problem.
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"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: Army Captain on Detainee Abuse Inquiry [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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ajfranke
Sep 28, 05 8:18
Post #12 of 13 (921 views)
Of course the Geneva conventions apply in Iraq and everywhere else. However, most of the problems in Iraq come from unlawful combatants whom most of the Geneva Conventions do not protect.

That part is not complicated, and a West Point grad should understand the distinction.

This sounds like a fine soldier who is doing his best, but he is just confused. At least he stuck up his hand and asked the various authorities to resolve his dilemma, but he either got bad or contradictory answers, or he just didn't understand the answers.

I am inclined to believe the latter from someone who talks about detainee treatment being morally inconsistent with the Constitution.

On the other hand, he has a hell of a point which he fails to develop, when he asks McCain for guidance. I get a kick out of Congress whining about Administration policy in this area as if they don't have the power to pass a law to determine policy. They will never do that of course, since they would have to make a decision and, ultimately, some reponsibility.
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Re: Army Captain on Detainee Abuse Inquiry [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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ajfranke
Sep 28, 05 8:26
Post #13 of 13 (913 views)
The only thing in the officer's statement, most of which I read, that sounds like abuse is one case of one soldier hitting one prisioner once on the leg with a baseball bat. No context was given, and it is unclear from the statement whether he actually witnessed it or is just repeating the words of others.

Pardon me if I don't faint away with a case of the vapors over this.
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