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Swim Terminology / Fishie Help!
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Ok so it will become painfully obvious I'm and adult on set swimmer looking for advice. It will also be clear I've never had coaching or swam with a squad in all the time (2+ years) since I've began developing my swim skill set. I've been reading a ton of swim sets and info found both on ST and in other areas of the interwebs. Now I have a simple and stupid question for all the Fishies

1 - How in the hell do you know when you're hitting a certain pace in the pool? Is this just as simple as experience trumping all. For me I go out, I swim I fatigue I repeat. I do intervals (although I haven't traditionally up until November 2014) and when I'm done my Garmin says you did X average throughout the workout. Obviously I can also see the various hills and valleys in the data but by no means can I say to myself "I'm doing a 1:30/100m pace" or "I am doing a 1:45/100m pace". Without looking at my watch which would just ruin the pace for obvious reasons.

2 - What do people mean when they say "leaving on 2:30" or similar? I don't get this at all. What the hell are they talking about here? Like look at your watch and every 2:30 take off for another set? Which would make no sense because they also usually have a given rest time in the description. Here is an example of what I mean:

[SET EXAMPLE]
6×150 on 2:30 (100 swim/50 kick)
12×25 on :30 (1 drill/1 underwater kick/1 FAST!, repeat)
3x[2×200 (1 FAST!/1 ez) on 3:00
3×100 (2 FAST!/1 ez) on 1:30
4×50 (3 FAST!/1 ez) on :50
(Round #1: swim, #2: pull, #3: swim)]
300 pull (25 back/75 free)
100 cool-down
*4300 total*


3 - Lastly with long straight through swims being useless for gaining speed or efficiency I'm curious what the longest interval one should be doing. I do short course so I'm not worried about anything over 1500m but I tend to do the 150-200% rule where I would train to 2250m or 3000m respectively to ensure I am more than capable of reaching the distances I need without hitting the ceiling.

Swimming is the last discipline I've yet to immerse myself into fully because of the lack of "insider information". I know I'm going to get the typical "go to masters, get a coach, swim with a squad" but honestly I have a 4 lane 25m pool in my condo and I am not interested in waking up at 4am for swim practice if I can just apply the principals myself. I do have plans to get a swim coach to come to my pool for a few sessions to get poolside feedback but so far I've not been impressed with the pedigree of those I've found thus far to do such a session. Oh and FYI I'm also fully equipped with just about any and every training tool Finis produces as well as a GoPro and I'm willing to put them to use to get me to where I want to be in the water.

If the only truly way to get better is to get a coach/swim with a squad/go to masters than I'll have my answer but I'd like to hear from as many fishies and onset swimmers as possible on how they got "faster" in the water.

------
"Train so you have no regrets @ the finish line"
Last edited by: cshowe80: Jan 30, 15 13:13
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Re: Swim Terminology / Fishie Help! [cshowe80] [ In reply to ]
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Adult onset swimmer too but more recent than you (less than a year). I've been doing Guppy (http://www.slowtwitch.com/...es/Guppies_week1.pdf) and also having a 1 on 1 lesson every 6-8 weeks. I'm seeing improvements.

The document I've linked will help explain the 2:30 thing, which is a leave interval. Public pools have pool clocks visible from either end which make it convenient for leave intervals. Or you can set up a tempo trainer with the appropriate interval and go on the beep.
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Re: Swim Terminology / Fishie Help! [cshowe80] [ In reply to ]
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cshowe80 wrote:

2 - What do people mean when they say "leaving on 2:30" or similar? I don't get this at all. What the hell are they talking about here? Like look at your watch and every 2:30 take off for another set? Which would make no sense because they also usually have a given rest time in the description. Here is an example of what I mean:

[SET EXAMPLE]
6×150 on 2:30 (100 swim/50 kick)
12×25 on :30 (1 drill/1 underwater kick/1 FAST!, repeat)
3x[2×200 (1 FAST!/1 ez) on 3:00
3×100 (2 FAST!/1 ez) on 1:30
4×50 (3 FAST!/1 ez) on :50
(Round #1: swim, #2: pull, #3: swim)]
300 pull (25 back/75 free)
100 cool-down
*4300 total*

6x150 on 2:30 means you do 150 6 times and you start each one every 2:30. So, you do the first one and 2:30 later you start the second one. If it takes you 2:00 to do the 150, you get :30 rest. If it takes you 2:10, you get :20 rest, etc.
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Re: Swim Terminology / Fishie Help! [cshowe80] [ In reply to ]
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I'm an AO swimmer and I got better by swimming more and going to squad. They have coaches there who not only provide excellent coaching but also explain the terminology. They also have 'real' swimmers who are beautiful to watch and a great resource to learn from.

When I swim with squad I swim further and harder than I would by myself. When I swim by myself I'm mostly trying to work on the things I learnt at squad.

Btw, that looks like a hideously complicated set example. I like the simplicity of Jasoninhalifax's 20x100 :-) http://forum.slowtwitch.com/..._reply;so=ASC;mh=25;
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Re: Swim Terminology / Fishie Help! [blackthugcat] [ In reply to ]
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The answer to the "leave on" question is easiest understood with an example. Let's use your 6 x 150 set as the example.

If you have a stopwatch, you'll start it when you begin the first 150. Let's say you finish in 2:10. You will leave when your watch hits 2:30, so you get 20 seconds rest (2:30 minus 2:10). If you finish in 2:25, you'll leave in 5 seconds (2:30 minus 2:25). You can reset your watch when you start each 150 and repeat this, or you can just tag your next start time to 5:00 (2:30 x 2), then the fourth 150 starts at 7:30, the fifth a 10 minutes, and the last at 12:30. Better in my view to do the latter as you'll then know when to stop (6 x 2:30 = 15 minutes).

If you don't have a stopwatch, use the pool clock and start on something that ends in zero or 30. Then you leave for the next one 2:30 afterwards. Say you left when the pool clock said 1:30. Your second 150 would start at 4:00, your third at 6:30, and so on. If you left when the pool clock said 16:30, your second 150 would start at 19 minutes, etc.

I hope this makes sense.

Good luck!
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Re: Swim Terminology / Fishie Help! [cshowe80] [ In reply to ]
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1. Experience trumps all.
Swimmers can lock into a pace just by feel. Good ones can turn over lap after lap at +\- .05sec of a given pace. Amazing to watch this. They have an in built clock that lets them know the right pace.

2. Already answered above

3. The fish (excludes me) will answer but it will no doubt vary. There's no 'set in stone' number. Even coaches will have different answers. As an adult OS swimmer with limited actual swimming experience (but many years on the sidelines), I like to do the occasional very long swim of at least the distance I'm training for (eg 3.8km for IM) and mix up other sets. I might do X lots of 400, or 300's as a distance set or I might do a bunch of 50's and 100's for sprint work to increase speed. Like you, I train alone and prefer the ability to do my own work rather than be dictated by someone. I've never used a coach for swimming but I do regularly get told how bad I am by my kids.
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Re: Swim Terminology / Fishie Help! [cshowe80] [ In reply to ]
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I'm not a fishie but I'm working on it swimming 20-25k/week with a squad. I had the same learning curve.

1 - At this point, just work on hard being faster than easy, and moderate being like tempo (moderate and sustainable). You'll learn over time what effort = what pace. One set I've done (strictly to work pace) was 5x100 on 2:00, 5x100 on 1:50, 5x100 on 1:40, 5x100 on 1:30, trying to get exactly 10 sec rest on each interval.

2 - You've 2:30 to do the interval. If the 150 takes you 2:15, that gives :15 rest.

3 - Personal anecdote, I only go up to 1650 and that's for a benchmark 1650 TT.

"Don't you have to go be stupid somewhere else?"..."Not until 4!"
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Re: Swim Terminology / Fishie Help! [cshowe80] [ In reply to ]
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Couple of things that haven't been mentioned. Your pool should have a wall mounted pace clock (or one on a wheeled stand). Use that rather than your watch, once you get used to it the clock is considerably easier and faster to use. If your pool doesn't have a clock, petition your condo board to get one. They aren't cheap, but they aren't terribly expensive either. All American swim has them at $200 to $350, dep on size.

Re point #3, you are getting enough distance, over the course of each workout. You don't technically need a swim longer than 400 or so for physiological benefit, although it can be psychologically beneficial to get in a handful. No more than a handful though, is what I would do.

Remember, you want to do as much as possible at race pace. Swimming 100's or 200's at 1500 race pace isn't that bad, you can do that every day, twice a day. But swimming 1500's at 1500 race pace is a whole 'nother kettle of fish.

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
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Re: Swim Terminology / Fishie Help! [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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The pool does have a clock but I swim without my contacts (wear glasses most of the time) so I can't see it from a distance. That's one reason why I did the Garmin Swim/920XT route but putting in contacts isn't an issue.

Thanks to all who answered the other questions. The explanation of the "Leave on" is so simple but I couldn't figure it out for the life of me. I assumed the pace was like power output is on the bike. When you get enough experience in the saddle you can lock into a set power output +/- 2-3w.

I'm going to do some open water squad swimming just outside Toronto. There is a quarry that hosts race simulations weekly during summer months apparently. I'm told it's a great location and over 80 people there on the weekend. Should be a great way to get better at the weakest of my skills. I think by the time the weather permits I'll have worked on my pool prowess a bit more and have an improved benchmark come race season.

Thanks again to all

------
"Train so you have no regrets @ the finish line"
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Re: Swim Terminology / Fishie Help! [cshowe80] [ In reply to ]
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Prescription goggles might be better than contacts as you can get nasty eye infections from contacts in the pool. I've seen speedo ones over a whole range of prescriptions.
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Re: Swim Terminology / Fishie Help! [cshowe80] [ In reply to ]
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As mentioned above, prescription goggles will let you see the clock. Since you are in Toronto, this site will ship from Canada and get them to you quickly.

http://www.aquagoggles.com/prescription-goggles/
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Re: Swim Terminology / Fishie Help! [cshowe80] [ In reply to ]
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I wear dailies in the pool, usually toss them as soon as I get out. Seems to work fine...

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
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Re: Swim Terminology / Fishie Help! [Zenmaster28] [ In reply to ]
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Speedo vanquisher optical goggles are awesome and come in clear and smoky lenses for pool training and OW

I tried a ton of different prescription goggles before settling on these
Last edited by: Drdan: Jan 31, 15 8:41
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Re: Swim Terminology / Fishie Help! [Drdan] [ In reply to ]
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I tried those too but didn't like them nearly as much as the Aquagoggles. I couldn't really figure out what it was about them but they didn't work for me.
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Re: Swim Terminology / Fishie Help! [Zenmaster28] [ In reply to ]
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i don't understand this
(Round #1: swim, #2: pull, #3: swim)]

anyone? thanks in advance
Last edited by: khouryd: May 26, 17 9:11
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Re: Swim Terminology / Fishie Help! [khouryd] [ In reply to ]
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khouryd wrote:
i don't understand this

(Round #1: swim, #2: pull, #3: swim)]

anyone? thanks in advance


It goes with what is just above it
3x[2�200 (1 FAST!/1 ez) on 3:00
3�100 (2 FAST!/1 ez) on 1:30
4�50 (3 FAST!/1 ez) on :50
(Round #1: swim, #2: pull, #3: swim)]


So, you do (2x200, then 3x100, then 4x50) three times. The first time you do swim, the second is pull, the third is swim.
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Re: Swim Terminology / Fishie Help! [Zenmaster28] [ In reply to ]
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Which solves how the workout gets to 4300m. Out swim coach is an expert on writing out cryptic workouts that leave us scratching our heads on a weekly basis. They are usually somewhat complicated too. But I actually like it because it makes the time go by faster.

They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

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Re: Swim Terminology / Fishie Help! [Zenmaster28] [ In reply to ]
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thanks, now i get the 4300m

A:
6×150 on 2:30 (100 swim/50 kick) =900
12×25 on :30 (1 drill/1 underwater kick/1 FAST!, repeat) =300

3x (Round #1: swim, #2: pull, #3: swim)]
[2×200 (1 FAST!/1 ez) on 3:00 =400
3×100 (2 FAST!/1 ez) on 1:30 =300
4×50 (3 FAST!/1 ez) on :50 =200


300 pull (25 back/75 free) =300
100 cool-down =100
*4300 total*




Last edited by: khouryd: May 26, 17 9:44
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Re: Swim Terminology / Fishie Help! [len] [ In reply to ]
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len wrote:
Which solves how the workout gets to 4300m. Out swim coach is an expert on writing out cryptic workouts that leave us scratching our heads on a weekly basis. They are usually somewhat complicated too. But I actually like it because it makes the time go by faster.

I went to U of Waterloo, and swam with a few math majors. occasionally coach would let one of them write the workout, and it was usually some convoluted series within a series within a series. We'd spend half the practice trying to figure out the pattern.

Now, we have 2 coaches at masters. Nigel (who coaches M, W, Sat, Sun AM) never writes out a practice, always gives you one set at a time (verbally). He always has a pattern, so we usually play "guess the next set" between sets.

Makes life more interesting....

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
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Re: Swim Terminology / Fishie Help! [PushThePace] [ In reply to ]
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Doesn't anyone say "on the top" or "on the bottom" anymore? I figured it would have come up here...

(You guys might be too young to have swum with analog clocks)
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Re: Swim Terminology / Fishie Help! [apmoss] [ In reply to ]
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apmoss wrote:
Doesn't anyone say "on the top" or "on the bottom" anymore? I figured it would have come up here...

(You guys might be too young to have swum with analog clocks)

We have three digital clocks and no analog clocks in our pool, and we all say "on the next top" (which means the top after the one that's about to hit...)

Of course, we are all old.

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: Swim Terminology / Fishie Help! [apmoss] [ In reply to ]
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apmoss wrote:
Doesn't anyone say "on the top" or "on the bottom" anymore? I figured it would have come up here...

(You guys might be too young to have swum with analog clocks)

Almost always with analog pace clocks, except it has 4 colour-coded hands. So we don't say "on the bottom". Instead it's "on the red, on the blue, or on the green"

There's also a yellow hand, but no one in their right mind goes on yellow top.

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
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Re: Swim Terminology / Fishie Help! [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:
apmoss wrote:
Doesn't anyone say "on the top" or "on the bottom" anymore? I figured it would have come up here...

(You guys might be too young to have swum with analog clocks)


Almost always with analog pace clocks, except it has 4 colour-coded hands. So we don't say "on the bottom". Instead it's "on the red, on the blue, or on the green"

There's also a yellow hand, but no one in their right mind goes on yellow top.

We always said "red up" or "blue up". Never, ever "yellow up"
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Re: Swim Terminology / Fishie Help! [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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That is so true. Yellow is bad

They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

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Re: Swim Terminology / Fishie Help! [len] [ In reply to ]
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len wrote:
That is so true. Yellow is bad

I find it hilarious how universal this is. Even coaches wouldn't tell us to start on a yellow.

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
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