I'm not going to dive into any predesitination arguments but let's just simply say you have the free will to follow God at any time.

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I'll be what I am
A solitary man

I think you have serious issues regarding the actual meaning of reason, and how it properly applies to not only faith, but also facts.

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Wow. Care to explain?

Would it be the historically accurate Tower of Babel being responsible for the multilingual human race? Would it be the historically accurate assembly of 2 of every animal on earth assembling on one continent and then boarding a boat? Would it be the historical accuracy of Methusellah living for hundreds of years? This is exactly what I'm talking about - people bending their reality to fit around dogma.

Let me clarify one point. I am agnostic, not atheistic. I understand that there are things that science cannot yet explain. I also understand that human emotions are commonly misinterpereted as proof of the "hand of god". The emotions that bond us to others, love, compassion, etc. are not unique to human beings, but instincts that can be found in the animal kingdom as well - monogamous mating, "love" demonstrated by bears fighting to the death to protect its cubs, etc. Food has to be enjoyable to consume in order for us to want to eat, thus survive. It is nature's way of ensuring survival. I know it's much less romantic than the "whole world in his hands" viewpoint, but it's something I can live with.

And I don't quite get the comment about god not being benevolent toward me. Are you saying that he hasn't been, and my belief system is the reason? Feel free to elaborate.

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The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W

DualFaul, It’s a good question and lots of different ways to answer. Although I think you’re answer is getting at foreordination, I’ll try to avoid that and opt for another way, which I hope is still helpful (if not, then keep’em coming).

I’m understanding you’re question to be (basically): Why did Paul ask for something (removal of the “thorn of flesh”) when he knew that God had already decided whether or not He was going to remove it? Or, put another way: Why didn’t Paul just ask God to help Paul to deal with the thorn of flesh one way (removal) or the other (not removal) no matter the circumstances? Yet, isn’t this second question also a petition for a result (“gain insight and inner peace”)? Prayer is about dialogue with the Sovereign God of the universe. What is particularly unique about the God of the Bible is that although He’s the Creator of the Universe, he always bids us to call Him, “Abba” (basically “Daddy”). If I have a personal relationship with Him, then it’s more disingenuous to NOT ask Him for things that are on my heart. He bids us to ask for these things. Personally, even as an imperfect father to a 5-year-old, I often know in advance whether my daughter is going to ask for -- and be successful in getting -- ice cream for after-dinner dessert. Yet, I welcome the request … every night. I think it would be disingenuous for me to tell my children to only ask for “insight and inner peace” of whether or not they’re going to get ice cream, especially when I know – even though understanding would be good – they really want to get ice cream. To your greater question, when ice cream is served, is it because I pre-determined it or because it was requested? This might be a cop out answer, but I think its relevance takes a better understanding of Plato’s material cause, instrumental cause and efficient cause, which I hope is beyond this intercourse.

Really, jhc, that's beneath you.


Sorry - that was in poor taste the way I wrote it. Still, you had thousands and thousands of people for her recovery, or for her to be allowed to keep the feeding tube, but none of that happened. How is it then such and obvious fact that group prayer works and better than any other prayer?

I'm sorry, but the original statement is indefensible. It's certainly not a fact in any sort of objective, evidence based way. Nor is it a religious "fact" backed up with any sort of doctrinal support. The fact is how God decied to answer specific prayers isn't really known to us, and it's a bit presumptious to claim to know He works in "self evident" ways.

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Casey, this is Brian286 logic.

Just because some events in the Bible can be shown to be historically true doesnt make the statement "the historical accuracy of the bible has been proven many times" true. Clearly that should be obvious.

Certainly Genesus 1 has been proven not to be true.

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Certainly Genesus 1 has been proven not to be true.

No, it hasn't. Certain heterodox readings of it have been proven untrue.

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Your heterodox is others' orthodox, but point taken.

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http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...bible%20true;#450224

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...e%20accurate;#245083

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...e%20accurate;#245115

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...e%20accurate;#450224

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...e%20accurate;#450603

Sorry man ;)

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Does the fact that there are historically accurate references in the bible make it a credible document in its entirety? No more than any other work of fiction based on historical events. Is the Da Vinci Code to be fully believed because it contains "historically accurate" names, dates, events and places? No more than the Bible, Torah, Koran or any other historical religious text. You're giving credence to the stereotype of Christians being easily led, oblivious to critical analysis. Fight for the cause if you must, but please, make a respectable effort.

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The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W

DualFuel:

Many attempts have been made to disprove the historical accuracy of the Bible. In fact, there are several examples of people who undertook this task finishing as believers in the Father and Son.

It would be very difficult to find credible examples of disproving this book. The Bible has withstood rigourous scrutiny by scholars.

Truly inspiring and divine.

Josh McDowell comes to mind.

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I'll be what I am
A solitary man

Your reference to "historical accuracy" has nothing to do with the claims that it makes. You can prove that Websters Dictionary references mermaids and unicorns, but that doesn't make them real. The Bible was selectively assembled years after jesus' death, and his divinity assigned posthumously. If his divinity is one of the historically accurate points you are referring to, and you believe this, then there is no point in continuing this discussion. Believe what you will, but understand that it doesn't make it true, nor does it make other beliefs invalid.

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The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W

Why bother trying to prove or disprove something that is ultimately unknowable? Does it suprise you that someone who thinks it may be possible could be swayed to believe?

You can cite highly intelligent references on both side of this issue, if that's your measure of truth. Albert Einstein, Galileo, George Smith, Thomas Paine, Benjamin Franklin, Mark Twain, Robert Ingersoll and many, many more brilliant minds had various opinions on the subject as well. Does this prove your opinion right or wrong? No - it only "proves" that intelligent people can offer their musings on the subject, but is thus ultimately nothing more than an analysis of the subject.

And as a point of reference, I studied the Bible daily from kindergarten well into high school, when I was finally allowed to decide upon my own beliefs. I come from "the church", not as a critical outsider with little knowledge of doctrine or practice. I have not come to these conclusions without doing my homework.

But I will watch the Chronicles of Narnia when it comes out in theaters.

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The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W

I would also suggest C.S Lewis

I'm on a CS Lewis binge right now. Until recently, the only work I've read of his was the Screwtape Letters. Fascinating work- most of it extremely readable, and at the same time, very thought provoking.

Have you read "Till We Have Faces"? Or his Space Trilogy?

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

I have read Till We Have Faces (excellent)

I don't know if it speaks more to his skill as a writer, or to my general lack of culture that I didn't realize until the very end that it's a retelling of the myth about Cupid. One of those headsmacking moments.

not the Space Trilogy. I'm looking forward to reading it.

Excellent books. "Perelandra" is the strongest of the three, imo. "That Hideous Strength" was kind of odd- written in a wholly different style than the first two. (Interestingly, one of the two main protagonists in it is a woman who's decided not to have children, and to focus on her career and "self-actualization" instead. It's always a little surprising to me to see how long attitudes like kittycat's have been around.)

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

What a terrible attitude kittycat has eh? That the sole purpose of women on this earth isn't just to bear children... crazy

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That the sole purpose of women on this earth isn't just to bear children... crazy

I don't think I've ever said any such thing.

But yeah, her attitude is crazy.

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Sorry, it isn't just to bear them, it's to raise them. And cook dinner.

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Naw, you're right. Much better that they work for Walmart, or in some office cube somewhere.

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."