Don't you watch Springer?

This is an extreme example, don't you think?

I guess I'd cross that bridge when and if I got to it...however, I'd first get her the therapy she needed...both psychological and drug abuse. Then go from there.

Christ forgives alot...and forgives us for our sins. We're human and born with sin. Living in Christ's shadow is hard and we're apt to fail. This would certainly be a hard act to forgive...I'll admit. Can't say one way or the other right now.

There are many examples in the Bible that talk of forgiveness. The prostitute that washes Jesus' feet...the son that squanders his father's money comes home and is forgiven...

I bet a few have.

Was channel surfing and paused on Dr. Phil -- this was a woman who stayed with her abusive husband -- Dr. Phil was "Why are you staying with this guy??" -- I flipped the channel and didn't hear the answer

Point is -- at what point is enough - enough??

Your wife likes to sleep around with other men?? IS that enough ??

Your wife starts doing drugs and beats the kids?? Is that enough??

Point is -- at what point is enough - enough??

The point is, "enough" should be a lot more than it usually is.

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Sparticus, I think your question is a fair one. Yet, I think it can be an individual choice—up to a point—without being considered a total failure. In other words, as Casey pointed out, although God hates divorce, the Bible does provide an out in certain circumstances (e.g., adultery). Yet, the example we have from Christ is that He never leaves the church even after the church has done basically the equivalent to all your examples to Him. In the book of Hosea, Hosea’s wife is a prostitute who keeps returning to prostitution; but, God tells Hosea to keep her as his wife. God’s direction to Hosea to stay with his wife (who symbolizes Israel/church) and the example set before us in Christ is yet another example of how Christ sets a perfect standard of righteousness that we are called to meet … yet we fail. Fortunately, our salvation is based on Christ fulfilling all righteousness; not anything we do.

How far would I go? My hope is that I would go all the way, but it’s hard to say without it actually happening. It’s a good question that we should all consider.

"Because Brian isn't the one shouting about how open minded he is- you are. "Look at me, I'm so open minded, and you Christians are such close minded idiots."

No I never felt Christians are closed minded idiots I never said that and definitely need not shout anything. It's not my style to shout down people is it yours?. You're so defensive.

There are a huge proprtion of people who are religious and for sure they are not all idiots. But religion for sure does limit certain freedom of thought and options if one is going to dedicate his/her undying faith to any one.

What I did say is that a large proportion of Christians are enthusiastic and pesky recruiters are they not?

1) If your mind is so "open" then why aren't you open to the idea of Islam?

Where have I said that I wasn't?

An open mind does not mean merely looking at it in some superficial way but being willing to become a believer as you have in your present faith. My point in this is you are asking me to 'open' my mind to Christianity which is really a paradox because 'opening' my mind to your one religion and accepting it as my own is closing my mind to anything else that is different. That is severely limiting my options to think for myself and is just the opposite to 'opening' my mind to Christianity. You should really say why don't you close your mind and follow my faith.

2) As for Christianity, been there, got forced fed but threw it back out.

So being presented with something (taught) is..by your words..."force fed."? Interesting. Were you force fed Algebra? Evolution? The Big Bang? Physics?

Here we go again, first it's dedication to sports being the same thing as religious fervor and now it's this. Well maybe I should call you Mr Rubber Band for your stretching abilities. But what else should we expect from someone who can equate a religious belief and 'relationship' with his maker with a marraige to one's wife? Stretchy-stretch!

It's this kind of stretching for one, that further convinces me that you guys really are here in body but have already migrated somewhere else in the mind. The logic inevitably get's twisted to suit the belief. And no matter how twisted the analogies get you Guys actually believe it. ..sigh. I won't even touch on where the soul is going cuz you have all the answers to that for sure and that could be another major thesis.

No I never felt Christians are closed minded idiots I never said that

No? Remember any of this?

And yet such a large proportion of our population are willing to forego much of this precious gift by blindly following something we self created called institutionalized religion.

From what I can see many 'True Believers' of all the various religions are simply not doing the correct things by standards of logic and reason, but rather from religious fervour or usubstantiated teachings or rules and often extreme hypocracy.

I'm sure you good religious folk have your beliefs set in stone anyway

Although your brain is already brain washed to believing it, not everyone needs your brand of salvation.

It's this kind of stretching for one, that further convinces me that you guys really are here in body but have already migrated somewhere else in the mind.

The logic inevitably get's twisted to suit the belief. And no matter how twisted the analogies get you Guys actually believe it.



But religion for sure does limit certain freedom of thought



How's that?

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

She sounds really great....I would kill her in France and fly back right away...then move to Mexico and start a new life.

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

Eleven.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

Almost all institutionalized religions limit the freedom of free thought because they dictate to people what to believe and how to act. Just a simple fact, don't take it so personally. Again I'm not calling anyone an idiot, whether they have religion or not.

"But religion for sure does limit certain freedom of thought
How's that? "]

Well I've already explained why I feel it is so in so many ways over my last several posts and again above. If you don't want to or can't accept the explainations, then don't, but why ask for more of the same? The smart thing for us to do is just treat it as a discussion of differing opinions. If you are that committed to your beliefs and can see no basis in what I'm saying why bother getting uptight? There's a saying, "Only the truth hurts."

Almost all institutionalized religions limit the freedom of free thought because they dictate to people what to believe and how to act. Just a simple fact, don't take it so personally.

Believe me, I'm not taking much of what you're writing on this topic personally.

As to the idea that it's a "simple fact," that's really just ridiculous. "Dictating" to people what to believe and how to act? Give me a break. I guess you must think that most governments, including ours, limits freedom of thought. Come to think of it, I suppose you must think that education itself limits freedom of thought.

There's freedom of thought, and then there's anarchy of the mind. Without any limits at all, the intellect ends up eating itself.

As far as who's more free to think, a materialist or a person of faith, I'm pretty sure Chesterton settled that question definitively almost 100 years ago, in "Orthodoxy." Maybe you should check it out, being the open minded sort of fellow that you are.

Again I'm not calling anyone an idiot

Do I need to re-post that series of quotes from you?

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

As to the idea that it's a "simple fact," that's really just ridiculous. "Dictating" to people what to believe and how to act? Give me a break. I guess you must think that most governments, including ours, limits freedom of thought. Come to think of it, I suppose you must think that education itself limits freedom of thought.

Come on, Vitus...did you ever read Orwell's 1984? The thought police!!!

I figgered I'd save you the trouble of a trip to the library to check out "Orthodoxy," kangaroo. Here's a relevant excerpt:

For we must remember that the materialist philosophy
(whether true or not) is certainly much more limiting than any religion.
In one sense, of course, all intelligent ideas are narrow.
They cannot be broader than themselves. A Christian is only
restricted in the same sense that an atheist is restricted.
He cannot think Christianity false and continue to be a Christian;
and the atheist cannot think atheism false and continue to be an atheist.
But as it happens, there is a very special sense in which
materialism has more restrictions than spiritualism.
Mr. McCabe thinks me a slave because I am not allowed to believe
in determinism. I think Mr. McCabe a slave because he is not
allowed to believe in fairies. But if we examine the two vetoes
we shall see that his is really much more of a pure veto than mine.
The Christian is quite free to believe that there is
a considerable amount of settled order and inevitable development
in the universe. But the materialist is not allowed to admit
into his spotless machine the slightest speck of spiritualism
or miracle. Poor Mr. McCabe is not allowed to retain even the
tiniest imp, though it might be hiding in a pimpernel.
The Christian admits that the universe is manifold and even
miscellaneous, just as a sane man knows that he is complex.
The sane man knows that he has a touch of the beast, a touch of
the devil, a touch of the saint, a touch of the citizen. Nay,
the really sane man knows that he has a touch of the madman.
But the materialist's world is quite simple and solid, just as
the madman is quite sure he is sane. The materialist is sure
that history has been simply and solely a chain of causation,
just as the interesting person before mentioned is quite sure
that he is simply and solely a chicken. Materialists and madmen
never have doubts.

Spiritual doctrines do not actually limit the mind as do
materialistic denials. Even if I believe in immortality I need not
think about it. But if I disbelieve in immortality I must not
think about it. In the first case the road is open and I can
go as far as I like; in the second the road is shut. But the case
is even stronger, and the parallel with madness is yet more strange.
For it was our case against the exhaustive and logical theory of
the lunatic that, right or wrong, it gradually destroyed his
humanity. Now it is the charge against the main deductions
of the materialist that, right or wrong, they gradually destroy
his humanity; I do not mean only kindness, I mean hope, courage,
poetry, initiative, all that is human. For instance, when
materialism leads men to complete fatalism (as it generally does),
it is quite idle to pretend that it is in any sense a liberating force.
It is absurd to say that you are especially advancing freedom
when you only use free thought to destroy free will. The determinists
come to bind, not to loose. They may well call their law the "chain"
of causation. It is the worst chain that ever fettered a human being.
You may use the language of liberty, if you like, about
materialistic teaching, but it is obvious that this is just as
inapplicable to it as a whole as the same language when applied
to a man locked up in a mad-house. You may say, if you like,
that the man is free to think himself a poached egg. But it is
surely a more massive and important fact that if he is a poached egg
he is not free to eat, drink, sleep, walk, or smoke a cigarette.
Similarly you may say, if you like, that the bold determinist
speculator is free to disbelieve in the reality of the will.
But it is a much more massive and important fact that he is not free
to raise, to curse, to thank, to justify, to urge, to punish,
to resist temptations, to incite mobs, to make New Year resolutions,
to pardon sinners, to rebuke tyrants, or even to say "thank you"
for the mustard.

---

"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

1) "Believe me, I'm not taking much of what you're writing on this topic personally."

I wish I could but your tone tells me otherwise.

2) "As to the idea that it's a "simple fact," that's really just ridiculous. "Dictating" to people what to believe and how to act? Give me a break. I guess you must think that most governments, including ours, limits freedom of thought. Come to think of it, I suppose you must think that education itself limits freedom of thought."

Of course I don't think that of education, but I do think you're trying to stretch an analogy beyond what is stretchable.

3) There's freedom of thought, and then there's anarchy of the mind. Without any limits at all, the intellect ends up eating itself.

Don't get your point. You can explain it further if you want to take the trouble. Ditto for number 4) below.


4) "As far as who's more free to think, a materialist or a person of faith, I'm pretty sure Chesterton settled that question definitively almost 100 years ago, in "Orthodoxy." Maybe you should check it out, being the open minded sort of fellow that you are."

You see there you go re:, above: "Maybe you should check it out, being the open minded sort of fellow that you are." Ths kind of sarcastic tone logically means personal reaction and your posts are peppered with such

5) "Again I'm not calling anyone an idiot
Do I need to re-post that series of quotes from you? "

Please do if you think it makes a diff. After all I already did entertain that accusation with an honest explaination.

Talk about the plusses and minusses for Institutionalized Religions. Substantiated opinions would be best. Since you're for religion why don't you just give us the 'skinny' on why you're convinced you're hooked up to the 'real' truth of the universe? If you want to refute me why not focus on why you think my opinions are ridiculous or unsubstatiated with substantiated replies of your own? I reckon it's a whole lot better than just making snide remarks with no enlightment on the topic itself.

I for one am awaiting your ENLIGHTENMENT! Sceptical I may be because at this stage I believe I have just about heard it all, but no sarcasm meant cuz if it is genuiney logical I for one will certainly give it due consideration and am even prepared to modify my outlook.

There's freedom of thought, and then there's anarchy of the mind. Without any limits at all, the intellect ends up eating itself.
Don't get your point. You can explain it further if you want to take the trouble. Ditto for number 4) below.

I guess you didn't read the excerpt I cut and pasted?

Since you're for religion why don't you just give us the 'skinny' on why you're convinced you're hooked up to the 'real' truth of the universe? If you want to refute me why not focus on why you think my opinions are ridiculous or unsubstatiated with substantiated replies of your own? I reckon it's a whole lot better than just making snide remarks with no enlightment on the topic itself.

Are you kidding me? Brian started this thread with a post about how people should be more Christ-like and forgiving within their marriages, and rather than respond to that, you took the opportunity to talk about how close-minded people of faith are, and how brainwashed, and how damn pesky. Now you're upset with me because I didn't launch right into a logical defense of God's existence? You complain a lot about how unfair I am in this conversation, and how sarcastic, and how snide, and how I'm not trying to have a truly enlightening discussion, and I can only think that it's a grand example of the pot calling the kettle black. If you want to have a serious discussion about religion, start another thread, and I'll be more than happy to join you. If, however, you're just going to characterize religious faith as nonsense, and believers as brainwashed zombies- which is what you've done here- don't whine to me about how far the discourse has sunk.

---

"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

1) "Are you kidding me? Brian started this thread with a post about how people should be more Christ-like and forgiving within their marriages, and rather than respond to that, you took the opportunity to talk about how close-minded people of faith are, and how brainwashed, and how damn pesky."

No I'm not kidding you. Brian comes along in ST and posts a long one making an analogy of Christian belief with folk getting married. That was a bit rich. And yes religions of all things would definitely be responsible for the most brainwashing and closing minds than any other source or factor. I guess the extent of it on any individual varies but it still happens, just a matter of a whole extreme lot or just a little or something in between.

So it's an alternative opinion that comparing relationships with ones chosen institutionalized faith and God is really not anything like a relationship between man and woman. It's an opinion that it is really stretching it and using a really bad analogy to try and sell Christianity. If you disagree just tell us why. No need to get all hot and bothered.

2) "Now you're upset with me because I didn't launch right into a logical defense of God's existence? You complain a lot about how unfair I am in this conversation, and how sarcastic, and how snide, and how I'm not trying to have a truly enlightening discussion, and I can only think that it's a grand example of the pot calling the kettle black."

No I'm not upset with you, it's just a Godam (oops using the Lord's name in vain) internet chat conversation for Christ sake. Not upset, not complaining, just making some suggestions on how the discussion may be more conducive and constructive. Don't like the suggestion, throw it out and continue in anyway you want. That's cool no problemo. Just another suggestion, but before you jump the gun and presumptiously accuse me of being upset, being a black pot, whining, kidding with you, not believing in God's existence or whatever, maybe you can give it some thought to see if there really is any real evidence to it.

3) "If you want to have a serious discussion about religion, start another thread, and I'll be more than happy to join you. If, however, you're just going to characterize religious faith as nonsense, and believers as brainwashed zombies- which is what you've done here- don't whine to me about how far the discourse has sunk."

Again I'm not whining. Suggesting how to better go about having a more productive conversation on a topic that effects us all is not exactly complaining about how low this discourse has sunk. Sink it as low as you want if you don't like my suggestion, it's not life changing to me or anyone else.

And I really don't want to or need to start another thread. As I said a few posts ago I was just reacting to give another side to Brian's post which I felt was kind of the typical ridiculous religious salesmanship that sometimes occurs. Nothing against Brian, (or you) don't even know him (or you), just a reaction to his post. Another thread? Reckon I've said plenty and specified my opinions pretty blatantly nothing much more to add. I'm still here only because you keep talking to me.

I must say though in this discussion neither myself or any others not of a particular religious faith reading this thread really got much from you religious guys to substantiate the great salvations or benefits of having religion. As per usual what we normally get is just a whole lot of discourse with no real application to everyday life. In contrast reality I can give many live personal examples where religion has really not made a person a better person or a happier person. In some cases it has in many cases it hasn't. So what's the diff? If Institutionalized Religion cannot do that for all that take up that faith, then what good is it? And I can also give many live real examples where Religion isn't doing that hot in the big pic of the World's affairs either.

Brian comes along in ST and posts a long one making an analogy of Christian belief with folk getting married. That was a bit rich.

Why? You haven't addressed that point even once, as far as I know. (Hint: Noting that religion is akin to brainwashing is not at all on point.)

So it's an alternative opinion that comparing relationships with ones chosen institutionalized faith and God is really not anything like a relationship between man and woman.

Except you didn't offer that opinion, and you have yet to articulate it.

It's an opinion that it is really stretching it and using a really bad analogy to try and sell Christianity.

Except that Brian wasn't trying to "sell" Christianity, and neither was the article he posted. The article presupposed religious belief, in fact. What he was trying to "sell" was the idea that people who are married should not be willing to kick their spouse to the curb at the drop of a hat.

I must say though in this discussion neither myself or any others not of a particular religious faith reading this thread really got much from you religious guys to substantiate the great salvations or benefits of having religion.

That might be because that isn't what the thread is about. Once again, it was about marriage, and whether or not people should take it more seriously. Then you hijacked it asserted that religion is brainwashing, and people of faith are just close minded dolts. Now you wonder why nobody's attempted to substantiate the claims of religion. I say again, it's because that's not the topic of discussion- either of the initial discussion, or the discussion that you initiated. If you want to have that discussion, let's. But don't complain about how nobody's given you the answers you want, when you just refuse to ask the question.

I can also give many live real examples where Religion isn't doing that hot in the big pic of the World's affairs either.

How about giving me some examples where lack of religion hasn't been a complete and utter disaster?

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

I think this I say you say will never end. So I can say some more but what's the point? May God Bless you and it's amen for me.