i think johnyo's response was spot on. there is benefit to either but you really have to look at what you are ready for. if a 2 hour run is beating you up to a point that you need too long a recovery before your next quality workout and splitting it up makes you feel significantly better then i would choose the split. but understand that their is value in the single long run versus the split as fat oxidation increases as duration increases. the 50/50 split of glycogen usage to fat usage is anywhere between 37-46min of steady exercise. that being said, most of our runs use more glycogen than fat hence one of the major benefits of accumulating run times beyond 50 minutes. so to reiterate, try to get to a comfortable 2 hr run but splitting is a valuable tool to eventually get there.

I'm a decent runner. Leading up to my last IM, my longest run was about 20 miles in 2.5 hours. I'm not entirely sure it was sufficient, though. Maybe more volume in addition to the long run would have been more beneficial.


I ran a 3:47 ironman marathon (planned to run a 3:30, but my knee started to hurt in the last 10 miles and it reduced my pace considerably. Fitness was there, but I think durability was not).








For me, this is one of the reasons i'm doing so. It's easier to knock out an early run, get family time in, then do the second run later in the day. I don't get bored when running, though. I do plan to alternate weeks of single long run and split long run to change things up.

JoeO wrote:

What sort of consistent weekly mileage are you doing?

January averaged 30 mi/wk, Feb averaged 35 mi/wk, and for Mar planning to average closer to 40mi/wi. FWIW, I raced a 140.6 in late October '13, backed off in November, picked it back up in December. This is in addition to a demanding cycling build and probably below average swimming build (averaging about 14 hours a week for the past month).









Yeah, as I stated above, prob going to alternate long run and split long run just to change things up a little and, IMO, help with recovery. I just felt much less taxed after doing two runs, which consisted of a harder, shorter effort earlier in the day, and an easier, longer effort later in the day.

that's the polar opposite of what I did... I run long (and harder than long slow pace) in the morning and then slow/short later... the second run is mainly to boost recovery and add miles.

I understand the logic of beating up your legs in the AM (no matter how short the run) and then running hard on tired legs later but then you're completely losing the long slow run. You're just running more to run more. And running harder to run harder. Like everyone said above.. the long slow run plays a major role in the training log.... I just think you don't have to run 2:30 to get it... you only have to run 2hr and then throw a recovery run (40min) EOD to bump miles.

sorry for this archaeological quote but i'm trying to read and learn about long run split because:

run is my limiter, not because i'm so slow but because sometimes my achilles tendons stop me from a consistent IM training .
sometimes is more confortable and mentally easy for me to run i.e. 70% of run in the morning (when my kids are sleeping) and then run the other 30% just before lunch time.


my question (not only for paul )

i see here that the are differents schools of thought but even if a splitted long run do NOT give me the same benefits of the equivalent long run i won't cry. (I'm an husband and a father before an Ironman ).

how much time between the 2 runs? 3/4 hours are enough?

my idea is to use the time Immediately afterwards the first run to put ice on my achilles tendon (i do this after every run workout for caution)

i see that someone suggests to perform an easy ride before the second run.. why? this easy ride (1h max) helps to make the second run not too easy ???

i'll race an IM on 23 september and at the moment i'm ok with long rides but my longest run was only 20 KM (not miles) and the last week i'havent run because of a little injury so i need to 'build' at least 2 x 2.5 hours run before tapering i think.

thx to everyone

if you are to ice the Tendon after the first run...you need to give it a few hours before doing the second run. running on anything after icing would be a big injury risk...definitely increasing chance of getting hurt.

Achilles is a very tricky tendon as very little blood goes to that area for repairing. So while icing right after and working can be good to prevent inflammation, it s also very good for the Achilles to give it a lot of heat to bring new blood to that area and help with recovery.

so hot cold hot cold hot cold cycles are good.

Double run...usually, run in morning, and do the next one later in the day...as far as you can split them. I do give easy ride to athletes that have extra time. that easy ride loosen and relax the legs after the first run...so legs feel little better for second run. If you are time limited... don't worries about that aspect.

as you said, your a father...get what you can and don't worries too much about what other call ''optimal'' i have plenty of father that have busy life and found way to be successful running at ironman on split runs and no long run.

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Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
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Thx for your answer jonathan.

At the moment the right achilles is slightly inflamed and my longest run was only 23km. So in the next two weeks (before 3 weeks of tapering) i plan to build at least two long splitted runs on saturdays , 24/25 kms the first and 28/29 the second).

my idea is to run about 16 km in the morning and complete it at about 16/17 p.m ...and... is not a problem to put an easy ride before the second run (1hour max i suppose), this, i suppose, could also help to train the transition right? (

do you think that splitted long runs are safer regard injury prevention (not only achilles .generally speaking) ?

because an injury i have stopped my runs for 10 days at the beginnin of august...do you think that this could allow me to reduce the running taper at only 2 weeks ? i usually taper only 1 week for the swim and 3 for bike and run.

Splitting a long run does not work.

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https://markmcdermott.substack.com

Different things work for different people. I have found splitting long run up has allowed me to get 20-22 mile runs in (over a 8 hour period) with less wear and tear on my body. I do still also do some 18-20 miles runs not broken up as well. I am a big fan of breaking up 2 runs with a bike in the middle.

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2024: Bevoman, Galveston, Alcatraz, Marble Falls, Santa Cruz

I have had really good luck splitting the long run. Both in an IM build and a true marathon build. Now my body can handle a 20 miler alone but I have enjoyed, as much as one can enjoy, midweek long runs with like 15-17 in the am then another 4-5 in the pm. Then weekends usually are a longish run with tempo one day followed by an easy 2nd run that day. Then the next day a medium easy run. I've found it helps me build mileage which is the limiter as you get faster.

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yes, i do beleive in most case, it s easier on the body, recovery is faster and i m hoping it s a safer protocole to prevent injury.

That said, i would stay to the normal taper schedule, you have a injury right now and trying to make it to the start line...go in there with the mentality that it s better be understrain and relatively healthy than doing a little more to get a few % up in fitness and be a DNS because of a injury.

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Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
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thx for your support. to be honest my achilles tendon seem to be almost OK. pain (but is not the right word ) is only if i press it with my fingers...so i think it could tolerate the next weeks with about 50km in 4 sessions for each one...with some help from ice.

my biggest mileage was only 40 km before so the split tecnique could allow me to reach the 50km reducing injury risk:

my plan is a z3 session (10km)
an easy Z2 session (12/14km)
a split saturday session (15+10 the first week and something more to reach 30km the last week before tapering)

In general, regarding injury prevention, that answer would still depend on the individual as well as the goal that they have in mind. For someone who's an experienced runner, especially training for a tri? Sure. But for someone that is just training for a straight run, I disagree. Because in that case, the injury is telling you that something is going wrong in your training that needs to be addressed. For individuals that were marathon training, I'd be more likely to suggest going to a 10 day cycle instead of splitting long runs.

20 miles split up in two runs < 20 miles at once. Do what you have to do, but don't mistake that simple fact.

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https://markmcdermott.substack.com

One of my key workouts last 2 yrs has actually been a 6 mile easy-moderte run, 80 mile tempo bike, 16 mile IM pace -10sec run all done as one big workout/brick. In discussing with my coach keeping all that running biking together works similar systems so its one really big aerobic workout. I do agree these is a place for 20 mile runs, I just did one Sunday, but breaking them up I think is a very good strategy thats under utilized.

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2024: Bevoman, Galveston, Alcatraz, Marble Falls, Santa Cruz

I said in another thread that everything depends on the stimulus you're aiming for. Your workout above has a certain aim. What the post was about didn't indicate any sort of bike portion, just taking a long run and splitting it up to make it easier. That is what I am warning against. There's a reason splitting it up may be easier...because it's not the same as doing it all as one.

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https://markmcdermott.substack.com

I disagree--as I do this a few times leading into MDOT races and I run well in them.

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That doesn't mean you trained optimally.

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https://markmcdermott.substack.com

You can split your 40-50 mile running week into 3-4 slots or 8-10 and you're probably going to run the exact same run split on race day


IN the above quote seem that is not so simple to tell ">" or "<" when comparing long run vs splitted run.


Maybe with a split run you loose some second per kilometer in the run but this allow you to be more consistent through the season and to have better rides the day after the run. and this could be the reason why at the end of an IM race the run split is the same.


i'm not a coach but i'm trying to put more consistence in my runs and a split run could be the key.

Hi,

first: this saturday i ve done my first long splitted run. it was a good day because temp was about 10° less than the previous 4 weeks. So a 19km run in the morning and a 9km at about 3 pm both at a good pace. I think i'll do this even this saturday but with a total of only 25 km...because i'll rce my IM on 23 september (2 weeks and my longest run will be that 19+9 ....hope it will be enough).

Splitting the long run give me some other doubts: even a 30km run, if splitted, can be perfomed during workin' days. i'm used to wake up at 5.30 and have 60 to 90 minutes sessions so it won't be a problem to put a 20km morining run and a 10km when i leave the office.

My training plan usually has long runs on saturdays and long ride+short run on sundays. Obviously on sunday i don't feel strong, my legs are tired form saturdays runs.

could it be a good idea to put long runs on tuesday or Thursday and only a medium or easy run on saturday?

in most case, i much prefer to not have the long run/split run the day before a long ride or after. Those 2 are key sessions and it s much better in my opinion to have them few days appart.

so yes, doing it mid week is what i try to do with most athletes. then, you can get perhaps a good tempo run saturday. wont be as hard on the body as your long run but will give you a decent day and still decent legs for the long ride.

many way to go about

at ironman distance.... i think many are overly concern with the need for too many long runs. constancy over the week does a lot more overall

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Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
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thx a lot. this morning at 6 o clock i ve run a 13km ...(tired from yesterday 2h hour indoor ride)...at about 7pm i ll do other 13km and this will be the last long run.

Saturday i'll do a 13/14km tempo run and an easy 1h ride (indoor due to the rain) before. sunday i ll try a 5h bike.

i'll taper 2 weeks for run, 10 days for bike and 4 or 5 for swim.

the last 2 months were not lucky... the last 3 weeks i put a 50/55km run and 8/9 hour bike weekly volume...not a great volume but my target is only to finish under 12 hours so i hope it's possibile even with this volumes.

Hi Jonny,

i'd like to thank you for your tips about long run splits. I've fineshed IM Italy 4 days ago with a good run (not fast but my legs were really ok till 32/34° km, after that km i had to slow down a bit due to an old injury..).

maybe i performed a too conservative bike leg but this Ironman had to be the one with a decent marathon ...and so it was.

I think that for my lifestyle, with little kids and wife, there were two key strategies:

1) Put 8/9 bike hours a week without really long rides (the longest was 156km and a lot of 130/140km rides). so the long bike session was replaced by a shorter one ..with more quality (z3 ).

2) splitting long runs in 2 daily sessions (both with a faster pace than a single one). Splitting long runs, as u confirmed, allows me to have long runs during the week and have long rides in the weekend with better legs.

so now that my legs know that this could work...i'll train this way for future ironmans.

thank you

at my best I am a 3.30 IM marathoner and what has worked for me is two 90 minute runs over two days. The advantage of this approach is that you get 3hrs of running in over two days and at a higher pace than doing one long run.
You have to do both runs at the same pace or you have gone too fast on the first run.