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Re: enought ftp talk...lets talk base [Carl Spackler] [ In reply to ]
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Carl Spackler wrote:
Ex-cyclist wrote:


Recharging is recovery. You can call it what you want, but that's what it is.


^^This. There's no reason to make up new terminology. Training is training. Recovery is recovery, and part of every training block--that's just common sense and not at question. For me, base has lots of tempo and sweet spot. I'm not a believer in spending hours at LSD, which many misconceive as base. But I'm also not going to do vo2 max and sprint work in the winter because 1) I don't enjoy it, and 2) those efforts put a big hurt on my body and ability to do loads of volume at what's a good intensity for me.

I have not idea where this idea that race intensity erodes base, and requires a return to it, came from. If all someone does is race crits and never gets in a long ride, then sure, you're going to lose some of the endurance required to do a four-hour road race. More common sense. But racing a crit in itself is not the cause of a decline in "base" fitness, not training properly is.

There is no new terminology.

For you, base has lots of tempo and sweet spot. Excellent, me too.

From that, I assume that base is not bullshit?

And if so, then yeah, exactly.
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Re: enought ftp talk...lets talk base [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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Francois wrote:
Heath, when do you want to go to reading class with me, Brian, Shane, Trispoke, riltri and everyone else but Jason in this thread? I heard they have great reading teachers in TN.

Don't worry, I am signing all of us up for remedial reading and an entry level communications class immediately.

I leave you with this fleeting thought.....If needforair has no one left to argue with in this thread, does he still argue?
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Re: enought ftp talk...lets talk base [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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Francois wrote:
Heath, when do you want to go to reading class with me, Brian, Shane, Trispoke, riltri and everyone else but Jason in this thread? I heard they have great reading teachers in TN.

I grew up in TN, I learned to read in NC. I'd choose NC over TN any day. Plus we have much better beer here.



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
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Re: enought ftp talk...lets talk base [Trispoke] [ In reply to ]
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From his posts, it seems that he can do a fair bit of arguing with himself, so who knows?
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Re: enought ftp talk...lets talk base [Power13] [ In reply to ]
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One of the posters is certainly demonstrating the appropriateness of his username.


Power13 wrote:

This thread.....



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Re: enought ftp talk...lets talk base [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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Re: enought ftp talk...lets talk base [needmoreair] [ In reply to ]
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Well guys, I guess that's that.

Even Carl has come on to illustrate what he does during base and though he hasn't responded to my query for confirmation, I take from that initial post that he doesn't believe base to be bullshit.

And that's pretty much all I wanted to get across from the beginning.

Now we've got some good jokes going and all, and fair play on some of them. Some valid points made on communication and not expressing things clearly enough.

But if you're done, I am as well. Gotta go get in some base miles; 60 minutes of tempo on call for today. Some sort of b.s. craziness, right? :D Have a good one.
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Re: enought ftp talk...lets talk base [espejo09] [ In reply to ]
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Hi,

Just wanted to chime in about some of the concepts regarding "base" training in terms of the differences between running and cycling. A lot of people here are stating that base training is BS, or that you can put high intensity training at different parts of the cycle depending on your race goals. I don't dispute any of this.

I do want to say that you should be careful if trying to carry any of these concepts over to distance running. It appears that due to the pounding on the body that comes from distance running, that a lot more time needs to be dedicated to easier paced running for a developing athlete than compared to swimmers and cyclists. That's why, for runners, I recommend significant amounts of early season "base building" regardless of the race distance. Veteran runners who've spent years in the 80+ mile per week zone seem to be able to get away with doing a lot less of this.

I had a debate here many many years ago regarding the "slow to fast" concept versus the "general to specific" concept, and as I've learned more about run training, I'm pretty convinced that regardless of the race distanace, developing runners need lots and lots of easy running.


Sorry to hijack the thread - go back to cycling talk.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: enought ftp talk...lets talk base [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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Ex-cyclist wrote:
Francois wrote:
Heath, when do you want to go to reading class with me, Brian, Shane, Trispoke, riltri and everyone else but Jason in this thread? I heard they have great reading teachers in TN.


I grew up in TN, I learned to read in NC. I'd choose NC over TN any day. Plus we have much better beer here.

I read somewhere that A'ville has the largest number of mirco-breweries in the US, or maybe per capita. Anyway, it's a great city. My daughter moved to Hendersonville and is now working at Park Ridge Health. She loves it there!!!

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Re: enought ftp talk...lets talk base [needmoreair] [ In reply to ]
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Ok, "recharge" is a pseudonym for "recovery" in your vernacular. You wrote it, not me.

It depends on one's definition of base. I have the flexibility to do decent volume outside during the winter. If I was on a trainer in the basement, my "base" block would look different, with more intensity. Ex-cyclist addressed this notion in the post I replied to. The amount of sweet spot and sub-threshold intensity that I can manage is probably greater than most. Likely more than most triathletes do during race prep, I do during winter base. So that program works for me, but might not for you or someone else.

Further, the notion of high intensity work eroding base--and the need to return to it after a block of racing--is absurd, IMO. Train, rest/recover, race, rest/recover, race some more.
Last edited by: Carl Spackler: Nov 12, 13 8:22
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Re: enought ftp talk...lets talk base [bhc] [ In reply to ]
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bhc wrote:
Ex-cyclist wrote:
Francois wrote:
Heath, when do you want to go to reading class with me, Brian, Shane, Trispoke, riltri and everyone else but Jason in this thread? I heard they have great reading teachers in TN.


I grew up in TN, I learned to read in NC. I'd choose NC over TN any day. Plus we have much better beer here.


I read somewhere that A'ville has the largest number of mirco-breweries in the US, or maybe per capita. Anyway, it's a great city. My daughter moved to Hendersonville and is now working at Park Ridge Health. She loves it there!!!

I think that is correct. If it isn't it is pretty close. Portland, OR still has way more breweries, but they are about 10 times the population.That and we are adding a new one every 3-4 months. It is crazy. The beer here is awesome, with so much competition it has to be. Great beer in most towns is mediocre here. If you are mediocre you don't last. If you come to Asheville let me know, we can grab a beer and talk about something besides intervals reducing the aerobic component of training. :)



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
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Re: enought ftp talk...lets talk base [AMT04] [ In reply to ]
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AMT04 wrote:
needmoreair wrote:
AMT04 wrote:

Above threshold intensities are sustainable, as long as overall volume is correspondingly low. Conversely, low intensities can be unsustainable if volume is too high. Focusing just on intensity makes the discussion completely meaningless.

The mix of intensity and volume absolutely needs to vary through the year to have a proper training plan (from general to specific) based on specific race goals. For individuals with a decent background in endurance training, their "base" is already established, so the general training that can be accomplished during the off-season can and should include above threshold and VO2 max efforts. Taking those efforts out means wasted opportunity to increase fitness.


The basic premise that we're working under is one of improvement, correct? So when you say superthreshold intensities are sustainable so long as overall volume is adequately low enough, then that's sort of beyond the scope of what we're dealing with here.




Base training is not BS. What's BS is the need for an experienced athlete to do it on a recurring basis.

I'm 31. I've been running for 15 years and swimming/cycling for 6, most of which has included structured and/or focused training. I don't need to rebuild my base each year, because it's been established over those years. Instead, my year will generally look like this:

Offseason: I'm going to spend my winter focusing on increasing my critical power and critical run speed, which will entail a significant amount of threshold intervals and VO2max work.
Early season peak: As I approach my early season races (70.3 and/or 140.6), those efforts will become more steady efforts, removing the more intesity for more race specificity.
Mid season: I'll add the intensity back in for a few months to continue to build some general fitness.
Late season peak: Depending on what the late season races are I'll again shift the focus to race specific intensity, likely 70.3/140.6. That means much less intense intervals, and more steady efforts.
Transition to offseason: A few weeks of unstructured training and relaxing

Rinse, repeat. No base training, just basic periodization. There are some nuances and detail missing above but bottom line is that if I took a few months to do the classic base training, I would be missing out on some significant fitness gains.



Finally some training specifics of an individuals training plan. This has been an interesting thread. A topic that seems to always come up around now going into the winter. And every athlete, at least the self-coached ones, analyzes the winter plan. I too years ago did the basic "base" low effort training. But years ago that probably is what I needed.

I am 53 and started training in '96. In '99 did my first marathon and then got into triathlon that year. So I have a lot of miles in me. I feel that I don't need the really long slow training now. Frankly that is what will burn me out mentally. Going shorter but often hard is not that mental grind.

My Off-season

Swim; couple open water swims a week. couple pool swims focusing on sprints, paddle/buoy interval sets on a challenging interval.

Bike: almost all fixed gear. some rides at a hard interval pace that will go above threshold. especially when climbing during the "on interval". forces one out of the saddle for an extended period. About every two weeks, a 20 miler on TT bike to gauge fitness. eventually up to a 40 miler fixed early February with lots of climbing. most weeks around 100 miles

Run: once a week, a 10 mile or so run. usually easy but sometime intervals like quarters, moderate then harder. on those runs at HIM run pace. once a week, 100 meter stride intervals like a 2 mile run that gives 1 mile total of 100s at around 5:30 pace per hundred. couple other easy runs for the week. maybe a tempo 3 miler.

Strength; three times a week a circuit routine: core (especially for the lower back) work using body weight and dumbbells focusing on flexibility and strength maintenance.


That's about it for me. Not too strenuous. Rarely over 2 hours training per day. About 10-12 per week. But about 20% is at or above threshold.
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Re: enought ftp talk...lets talk base [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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Sounds good! Just looked at your blog. When did you graduate from App?

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Re: enought ftp talk...lets talk base [needmoreair] [ In reply to ]
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Sorry I couldn't respond to your query fast enough. Perhaps I need to incorporate some vo2 max keyboard efforts in order to keep up.

What you're missing here is that base is a time of year, not a prescribed set of workouts. Depending on one's definition of base, I may or may not consider it sensible. DD has a methodology for his athletes and I know what works for me. Are they the same? Should they be? Should a triathlete and cyclist train the same way? Should an amateur cyclist and ProTour rider? Obviously not.

You're arguing to be right instead of considering alternate points of view. That's fine but personally, I'd rather accept where I'm wrong in order to get it right later.
Last edited by: Carl Spackler: Nov 12, 13 14:26
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Re: enought ftp talk...lets talk base [Carl Spackler] [ In reply to ]
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Carl Spackler wrote:
Sorry I couldn't respond to your query fast enough. Perhaps I need to incorporate some vo2 max keyboard efforts in order to keep up.

Let me "illustrate" something else: what you're missing here is that base is a time of year, not a prescribed set of workouts. Depending on one's definition of base, I may or may not consider it sensible. DD has a methodology for his athletes and I know what works for me. Are they the same? Should they be? Should a triathlete and cyclist train the same way? Should an amateur cyclist and ProTour rider? Obviously not.

You're arguing to be right instead of considering alternate points of view. That's fine but personally, I'd rather accept where I'm wrong in order to get it right later.



Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams
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Last edited by: soulfresca: Nov 12, 13 9:50
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Last edited by: desert dude: Nov 12, 13 13:17
Re: enought ftp talk...lets talk base [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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I haven't read through this entire thread, so please excuse me if this has been answered somewhere...

Are you saying that rather than lolly-gag through a couple of hours riding slow to develop "base", that I'd be better off crushing high intensity intervals, at least in the early phases of my season? That my "pre-season" is better spent increasing my thresholds than increasing my ability to be on my feet or in the saddle for a long period of time?

My work increasing my thresholds in the offseason (by training at higher intensities) will mean that when I start to go longer (easier) I will be able to do so at a faster pace, because said long run pace is 80% of a higher threshold than if I did long slow training all year?

So really the only impact of long workouts is the specificity in handling the pounding of running or ability to sit in the saddle for a long time?

What about Slowman's article on base from a few years ago? Does that article no longer apply?


Chris Harris
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Re: enought ftp talk...lets talk base [charris19] [ In reply to ]
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While I think this is better answered in a separate thread, I'm not saying only do intervals or only ride long aerobic efforts. You need to look at your events and do the things least specific the further you are away from those events. If it's an IM, then now is a great time to work on your anaerobic capacity and Vo2. You shouldn't neglect them through out the year. Near your IM they may be 8% of your training where now they may be 21% of your training.
Every workout you do contributes to your fitness. Base is really a term, imo, that should be retired from the training vernacular.
You need to lolly gag & you need to do intervals. They %'s change depending upon where you are in your training cycle. You don't need a number of weeks/months of just aerobic riding to establish "base" aka your fitness.
As for dan's article, I read so many articles per year that the specifics of it I don't remember. It may or may not be relevant. The way people train has changed somewhat over the years. Much of what has been written 8,10,14 years ago is not really relevant, just like in 13 or so years much of what has been written today may no longer be relevant.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Last edited by: desert dude: Dec 17, 13 8:26
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Re: enought ftp talk...lets talk base [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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BarryP wrote:
Hi,

Just wanted to chime in about some of the concepts regarding "base" training in terms of the differences between running and cycling. A lot of people here are stating that base training is BS, or that you can put high intensity training at different parts of the cycle depending on your race goals. I don't dispute any of this.

I do want to say that you should be careful if trying to carry any of these concepts over to distance running. It appears that due to the pounding on the body that comes from distance running, that a lot more time needs to be dedicated to easier paced running for a developing athlete than compared to swimmers and cyclists. That's why, for runners, I recommend significant amounts of early season "base building" regardless of the race distance. Veteran runners who've spent years in the 80+ mile per week zone seem to be able to get away with doing a lot less of this.

I had a debate here many many years ago regarding the "slow to fast" concept versus the "general to specific" concept, and as I've learned more about run training, I'm pretty convinced that regardless of the race distanace, developing runners need lots and lots of easy running.


Sorry to hijack the thread - go back to cycling talk.

Thanks, I've been taking it slow and steady but this thread is confusing to a newb like me. I'll just follow the "train your weakness" method, I'll keep working on the swim but run as I feel and ride scenic routes as "base".
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Re: enought ftp talk...lets talk base [espejo09] [ In reply to ]
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Used the search function, this thread was great entertainment and good for knowledge. This type of thread is son much more interesting than group obsession with how long Lionel Sanders sat on the the toilet for.
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Re: enought ftp talk...lets talk base [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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desert dude wrote:
Base is really a term, imo, that should be retired from the training vernacular.
You need to lolly gag & you need to do intervals. They %'s change depending upon where you are in your training cycle

a) Volume matters
b) Base is just a shorthand for focusing on volume early in the training cycle.

Mark
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