Before you get a new saddle, lower your seat height 2-5mm and push it back on the rails 2-5mm. Makes all the difference in the world!!

I tried to get my butt on one at the Women's Training Camp, but Dash designers have not yet seen fit to send a sample to Dan.

Maybe these posts will wake them up to the possibilities ;-)

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DFL > DNF > DNS

That's an odd suggestion considering you haven't seen her on her bike.

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Jen

"In order to keep a true perspective on one's importance, everyone should have a dog that worships him and a cat that will ignore him." - Dereke Bruce

The #1 complaint I have experienced is that when someone says it feels too wide at the front the placement of the saddle does not allow the rider to be positioned correctly on the saddle. The "average" woman has an ischial tuberosity measurement in the 130-135mm range. The width of the arms on that saddle measure 70mm (so it shouldn't feel too wide) and these arms are where the weight is supported. Actually the weight of the rider transfers from the ischial tuberosity to the pubic rami bones especially when the rider is an aerobar position. The feeling of the saddle being too wide most often is a result of the saddle being too high and too far forward not allowing the rider to have their bone structure supported in the correct spot at the correct height. The big difference between an ISM and traditional saddle is that the bone structure is supported on top of the saddle and does not sink into the cradle of a traditional saddle. This placement of support is usually not accounted for when installing and adjusting for the taller measurement of an ISM saddle from the rails to the top of the saddle. So generally you have to lower your seat post a few mm to get back to your original seat height and than lower it 2-5mm more to account for where the bone structure of the rider is supported.

Worth a try and it is free, no harm no foul adjustment and just might result in being comfortable without spending more money.

This argument drives me crazy. if you're sitting on your pubic rami bones in aero position, does it even matter how wide your ischial tuberosity bones are? How wide are a 105-lb woman's pubic rami bones (or 150 lbs, for that matter)?



I prefer a narrow nose saddle with a long cutout (Selle Italia). Whatever part of my body I actually sit on fits on the sides of the saddle comfortably, and what I don't want to sit on is over the cutout in every position, so it functions like a skinny adamo or whatever. The saddle is long, so the nose is in front of me. The only issue for me is keeping the nose within USAT limits; otherwise the nose is pretty irrelevant.

You are correct, for the most part in an aero position ischial tuberosity width doesn't matter. What does matter is having weight supported by bone structure (pubic rami) and not on soft tissue so there is compression of the pudendal nerve and artery. You have found a saddle that works for you and that is all that counts but in your own observation the nose is not needed because you don't sit on it, so why have? Remove it completely so there is no chance it can be a source of discomfort or worse.

Also, I am not aware that USAT has any restrictions on the fore/aft saddle placement. There are UCI restrictions and that is part of the reason more and more riders on time trial bikes who are governed by such regulations are discovering ISM saddles as they allow a saddle to be brought to the "5cm rule" line and by not having a nose effectively giving them the ability to ride steeper more comfortably.

~~The #1 complaint I have experienced is that when someone says it feels too wide at the front the placement of the saddle does not allow the rider to be positioned correctly on the saddle


So tell us, are you a fitter, or associated with ISM, or just how have you come to experience complaints about saddles?

Thanks for the education, very interesting.

~~ kate

I have been riding and racing for 25 years, I have worked in the industry as a bike fitter certified by several of the more well known and recognized programs. In the course of that work as well as my own personal quest for performance, comfort and health have come to be a huge advocate for the ISM design. Once it is understood as to how it is supposed to interact with the rider's body (male or female) it truly will be recognized as a revolutionary design. However, the best design in the world can't work the way it supposed to if it is not in the right place or used as it was designed to be used.

I like to use this example (works best with a shorter person but you will get the idea) with people I have worked with in the past. Put your bike on a trainer, raise your seatpost to its maximum height. Now climb up on to the saddle and try to pedal. If you are having a hard time reaching the pedal at the bottom of the pedal stroke, stop and replace your saddle with another model. Repeat. Try another saddle. Is it the fault of the saddle that you can't reach the pedals or is the placement of that saddle that is the problem?? We must bring the right piece of equipment (in this case and in my opinion an ISM saddle) together with the correct placement of the equipment to achieve optimal results.

Thanks for giving your background. Anyone can give advice and it helps to know who someone is when they recommend changing how a bike is set up.

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Jen

"In order to keep a true perspective on one's importance, everyone should have a dog that worships him and a cat that will ignore him." - Dereke Bruce

Thanks again for the info.

Let me ask you this: is there an Adamo that is squishier and skinnier in the front than the Racing model? The nose on my Adamo, whichever way you adjust it, really IS too wide. Which is weird, because I'm 6' tall with a relatively commensurate weight (okay I still have 20 pounds or so to go by November). This is TMI, but I have bruises b/c the saddle is too wide. Right now it's jacked all the way back and nosed waaaaay down, and no my seat's not too high. It's a Thompson zero degree setback post on my roadbike. So if it's that uncomfy on the road bike (a Guru Maestro), I don't even want to give it a try on the tri bike (QR). Hence my question about the Dash.

I really truly have given it a good while, with continual adjustments, and the Race doesn't work. You could say it was the bike, I guess, but I had it customed up from scratch by a guy in central Florida, so I don't think the bike's at issue here.

So we're looking for narrower and squishier. It just seems to me that the Dash Tri.7 might fit the bill, but if there's a less expensive ISM out there, that would be good too.

Thanks again for sharing your expertise, and welcome to the wimmins.

~~ kate

I have a nose on the saddle because nobody will make noseless saddles that are narrow enough for me -- same thing the OP has complained about. Considering how many people zip-tie noseless saddles, I have to wonder why nobody makes them narrower. As for position, USAT rule 5.11 says, A vertical line touching the front most point of the saddle may be no more than 5 centimeters in front of and no more than 15 centimeters behind a vertical line passing through the center of the chain wheel axle.
I do ride very steep, and my saddle is about as low as it's possible to get, so I don't have a lot of options, and there are a lot of us (especially women) who feel that way about saddles.

To the question about a narrower or softer saddle. The ISM Prologue will be a softer saddle for sure because the foam is a softer density. As far as narrower, I will say no but you may like it more for another reason. The arms are all the same dimensions for a reason. Remember, there is no nose so the arms support the weight on bone structure and because this is a discussion about saddles we must address what people experience in the real world, the design for women allows support for weight on this bone structure while softer more sensitive tissue is not compressed in the space between the arms. Make the arms narrower and now you have saddle structure compressing soft tissue which also impinges on the pudendal nerve and restricting blood flow of the pudendal artery. Just for the sake of conversation, for men the weight is supported by the same bone structure but all external genitalia is in front of the end of the arms. The problem with having a dramatically lowered front end (more than just a few degrees) rotates the hips and weight so much more forward that it becomes a never ending battle between weight coming forward than being more painful to lower the front end even more in an attempt to be comfortable but the lowering of the front even more just increases discomfort and other issues regarding overall fit. I would and I know that this is a leap of faith and doesn't seem like something you want to do but give it a try, level the rails of the saddle until they are parallel with the ground. You will still have a slight slope from the back of the saddle to the front but my guess is that it will be much less dramatic than you have now. Now lower the seat height. The saddle was never designed to work in a dramatically angled position. Let the hips be stabilized and supported and let the design of the saddle work the way it was designed but that will not happen until you come close to leveling it and lowering it. Back to the Prologue saddle, yes the foam is softer so that may suit you better and the other difference is that the sloped arms help alleviate the possibility of superficial chaffing on the inner thigh. It may just be a better choice and set up correctly (and just a little lower - trust me) you may find comfort for your riding.

To Gee: you are absolutely correct about the rule and I left out "enforced" in my reply. Unless you are competing at the ITU level, and you may very well be, or the highest elite races, national or international championship events I have never ever seen a USAT official even think about looking at this measurement. However, if this is a concern the argument for a noseless saddle design, and again, I am a huge fan of the ISM as I have said makes more sense. Just out of curiosity, identify where your weight is actually being supported on your current saddle. Mark that spot, measure the width at that point and then compare that measurement to the very forward part of the ISM arms. I would be interested to know what they both were in comparison. Now imagine where you sit on your current saddle that is comfortable (and again I am glad you have found something that works for you because that is all that is important) but have that spot 5cm further forward but still being legal to the strictest interpretation of the rulebook. If you don't want to ride this steep than no worries because it is always easier to get slacker than steeper. Also, to address the zip-tie issue that you mentioned. I would argue that people who are doing that do not have their saddle in the correct position either or that they do it because that the passed around urban legend of zip tying is continually perpetuated and they feel they need to do it just because. I do not need to zip tie my saddle on my road, tt, or mountain bike and they all have ISM saddles but I have invested time and energy in making the correct adjustments in the context of my overall fit to make it so.

I have the ism prologue saddle and have had similar discomforts. I am 6ft tall and wt approx 145#. I have repositioned my saddle several times and find that tipping it down in front is my only mediocre solution.

The way I describe my discomfort is if you have ever walked on crutches for a long period of time the axillary area becomes extremely sore/painful because of the very tender soft tissue. This is the same pain/ tenderness i feel in the area where the leg meets the crotch. I feel that if ism were to make the arms more flat giving way to an increased surface area but not widening the saddle too much would help. After all what do people do to help the tender underarms when on crutches? They wrap the tops of them to create a wider cushiony surface area.

Any thoughts, because I'm leaning toward a dash saddle as well. But soooo pricey.

I tried the 9 on the demo program. I was attracted to it by the wide back half of the saddle. I was looking for something like the Terry TI with the nose chopped off and thought this might fit the bill.

The back half of the saddle was exactly as I had hoped but the front was too long and the bar across the front of the nose hit my girly bits in a painful way.

The 7 was just too narrow for me.

Too bad, because these saddles are a thing of beauty.

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No coasting in running and no crying in baseball

I picked up a Koobi Tri on the ST classifieds yesterday. It looks like a narrower ISM Racing. The seller wanted $35 shipped. At that price, it's worth a shot.

So glad for all the experience and thoughtful discussion on this forum. Once again, ST rocks it.

~~ kate

I find different ISM models to be light years apart. I have the breakaway which has a longer nose that tapers down slightly narrower than the road, race, or TT models. I haven't tried the attack or the prologue. I know that the nose of the Dash measures the same width as the nose of the breakaway. I did that bit of research because I have been kicking around the idea of trying one. My hesitation was that right now "it ain't broke" so I am a little afraid to "fix it".

FWIW, I can't ride the ISM saddles at all on a road bike because the slack seat angle encourages sitting further back on the saddle and engaging the seat bones. When I ride my TT bike, the steep angle allows me to literally hang off the nose, rotate my pelvis, and hammer down and back. It almost feels like I am hooking the seat bones over the nose and hanging from them like a towel on a hook. If I go on a group ride where I am not in aero, all the saddle problems crop back up but of course so do a bunch of others because my bike is set up for an aggressive TT position and is a miserable animal when ridden like a roadie. I cannot comfortably ride in aero on any other saddle but the ISM though. I went to a cycling center that had a bunch of test models. Tried about 10 different saddles on a computrainer, picked one, took it on trial, and bought it a week later. There was very little difference in the appearance of the models I tried but the feels were worlds apart.

The Dash holds a LOT of appeal because it seems that it would all that aero position but drop the weight of a VW bug (ISM's only real drawback).

One big caveat... there is no piece of equipment more subject to personal preference and anatomy than the saddle. No matter what someone says should work, it's meaningless if it can't pass the comfort test. You must be comfortable or it will inhibit your ability to produce power. That doesn't mean it should feel like your favorite pair of jeans. It means that when you are working, it should not be getting your attention. Also, anytime you change anything on a bike, there is a cascade effect throughout the whole fit. If you move the saddle, angle the saddle, change the crank lengths, switch your aerobars, it will all have an effect on every other aspect of your fit. If you are finding that you have tried a million saddles and nothing is working, go back to the drawing board on your fit. I had to scrap everything and start over with a sizing on a fit bike, buy a new bike that seemed to be an illogical size but followed the numbers and go with very short cranks to discover how comfortable a saddle I already owned really was.

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Coach Brain: Accelerate 3 ; Incoherent Ramblings

Thanks, Duck. I went ahead & pulled the trigger on a bike fit, since it's a relatively new-to-me tri bike, and we started from scratch. The fitter's been around forever and got me into a pretty comfy position on my QR Dulce. I put a Koobi tri saddle on there. Still a little unwanted pressure on the front part of me, both aero and upright. Am going back in a little while to have him nose down the saddle just a hair. The Koobi may work out okay. The more I read about the Stage 9 Dash (there is a recent review on Triathlon.com), I understand that women don't particularly find it comfy. Very hesitant to pull the plug on that much money, even with the try & buy program. One of the ST guys has (had) one for $340 in the classifieds. Very tempting.

Thanks for your comments. One step at a time, y'know? Or, more likely for me, one step forward & two steps back. :)

~~ kate