My point Vitus, was pretty simple. Kids, in general, would recieve a better rounded education from a staff of competently trained and motivated teachers than they would from only one or two parents, even if that parent were competent as well. The reason is fairly obvious. No one or two parents can actually be any kind of expert in biology, spanish, mathematics, history, etc, etc. A staff of people trained in these disciplines offers more.

My point was not that homeschooling can't work, but that it's clearly not right for everyone, nor is it the answer to public education woes.

As for standardized tests, I think they're crap. In general they encourage people to teach to the test instead of testing a curriculum. They encourage teachers to stick to the bare minimums, instead of testing the education a child receives. Unfortunately, I don't know that there is a better option available to help measure progress over the large numbers of children we're talking about.

"What I would think is that one parent's dedication to teaching their kids compensates for that parent's lack of professional training."

Well I am dedicated to my brother and sister, but that certainly doesn't overcome the fact that I am not trained to administer medical advice to them. Or legal advice. Or advice about how to become an Olympic sprinter.

"I thought you were saying that most homeschooled kids could get a better education from a full staff of teachers."

You thought wrong. What I was saying is that the average student can get a better education by a staff of teachers than from their parents. The successful homeschooler is the exception, not the rule. I know a few homeschoolers (admittedly not too many) and they are about 50/50 in getting what seems like a decent education. About half of them are missing key ideas or components because when their parent gets to something they don't understand, they skip it or they muddle through instead of doing the topic justice.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

There are "some" poor teachers out there, but "many" very good ones that go "above and beyond the call of duty"? I don't think so.

Okay ... so this is where I say "I see teachers go above and beyond every day ... where are you getting your basis?" Rare is the teacher that refuses to stay after and help a child that asks for it (even past the "paid hours").

At any rate, it isn't that I have it out for teachers, TT.

I brought it up b/c I have seen similar comments in multiple threads, and I always had you figured as a reasonable guy (one who I usually agree with). It almost seemed like something happened to you (or loved ones) in a public school that caused you to get an inaccurate view of the profession ... sort of like if someone had a bad doctor or crooked lawyer or something.

It isn't true that whole teacher faculties educate kids better than parents. You OK with that, teach?

At the elementary level there are likely many parents that could do the job. Honestly, I wish more would. IMO, most of the kids that have learning/behavior problems just need more one on one instruction. The state's not gonna pay for it, so I would prefer if parents stepped up. Now, at the high school level, I doubt many parents could explain physics, chemistry, calculus, literature, foreign language, etc. I don't know many home-schooled kids at the high school level. Before/After junior high is a natural time to transition.

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"Did some research on this awhile back out of curiosity. Found:

1) About 80% are evangelical Christians.

2) Have a lower than normal home income

3) Academic performance is about the same over all "

Stat bending. How is homeschooling one (or a few kids) anywhere close to teaching a class of 25 whose diversity in race, income, previous education, emotional needs, behavior, etc is many times more than that of ANY single student?

Let a teacher teach those home-schooled kids and ONLY those home-schooled kids, and then let's compare their "academic performance" (very general, non-specific term). Geez ... Let me teach a SINGLE student ... especially if you're gonna compare me to a teacher (even the best teacher) of a normal (non-SpEd, non-gifted) classroom. I'm gonna come out solid gold on this one.

Let those home-schooling parents take a shot at a class of 25 4th graders, and let's compare.

You brought it up ... I'm all for it. Let's experiment and analyze the data. I'm willing to bet money.

If you're saying a subpar teacher of one student (or two) can do a comparable job as a single educated teacher teaching a class of 25, I say "I'm not surprised". MOF, I would use that as evidence to make the most importantly needed change in our system ... reduced class size. If you cut my class size in half, I could teach twice as much and do it better than I do know. Common sense.

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-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

It almost seemed like something happened to you (or loved ones) in a public school that caused you to get an inaccurate view of the profession

Well, nope. I didn't go to a public school. And my comments about current state of the profession, I say again for emphasis, are not intended as an indictment of every teacher. But it does seem strange to me that while most people will agree most emphatically that American kids are not performing as well as they should academically, nobody seems to think teachers could possibly be part of the problem.

Stat bending. How is homeschooling one (or a few kids) anywhere close to teaching a class of 25 whose diversity in race, income, previous education, emotional needs, behavior, etc is many times more than that of ANY single student?

You have got to be kidding me. Homeschooling a couple of kids ISN'T anywhere close to teaching a class of 25 (or 30 or 35) diverse kids. That's one of the biggest advantages of homeschooling, right? Others are saying that a single parent can't do the job as well as a full staff of teachers, and now you're complaining that the individual parent has an unfair advantage, because the individual parent can focus his attention on one or two of his own kids. YES! The question isn't who has the more challenging job, TT- teachers or homeschoolers- it's who can best educate a child in that specific child's particular circumstances. And all I'm saying is that sometimes it's the staff of teachers, and sometimes it's the individual parent, and claims that the individual parent can't do the job as well are not based in any factual evidence whatsoever.

Let those home-schooling parents take a shot at a class of 25 4th graders, and let's compare.

No, let's not, because nobody has made the claim that the homeschooling parents would make better professional teachers than the current public school educators. I've only said that they can educate their own kids at least as well as a public school can, and I don't see any evidence to the contrary.

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

My point was not that homeschooling can't work, but that it's clearly not right for everyone, nor is it the answer to public education woes.

Ah, the ever shifting boundaries of a Lavender Room discussion. Who said that it's right for everyone? Who claimed that it's the answer to public education woes? (Except as applied, perhaps, to an individual kid.)

What I was saying is that the average student can get a better education by a staff of teachers than from their parents.

Define "average student." Are you talking about the average kid in the general population, or the average homeschooled kid?

The successful homeschooler is the exception, not the rule.

Really? Got any evidence of all those failed homeschoolers?

I know a few homeschoolers (admittedly not too many) and they are about 50/50 in getting what seems like a decent education. About half of them are missing key ideas or components because when their parent gets to something they don't understand, they skip it or they muddle through instead of doing the topic justice.

Please. I suppose you haven't noticed any similar gaps in kids educated in public schools. And I know know how you despise standardized tests, but until you propose another measure of education, I guess we're stuck with them. Check out this link, as it appears to contradict your assertion about parents who are too ignorant to teach their kids: http://www.sdadefend.com/homescho.htm

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

"Ah, the ever shifting boundaries of a Lavender Room discussion. Who said that it's right for everyone? Who claimed that it's the answer to public education woes? (Except as applied, perhaps, to an individual kid.)"

Yes because God forbid anyone introduce a new idea to the discussion. Get off your horse Vitus.

"Define "average student." Are you talking about the average kid in the general population, or the average homeschooled kid?"

I don't really think "average student" needs much more definition. If I'd meant "average homescholer" that's what I'd have said.

"Please. I suppose you haven't noticed any similar gaps in kids educated in public schools"

I'm not sure what your beef is, but I specifically said in a previous post that there are obvious shortcomings in the public schools.

"And I know know how you despise standardized tests, but until you propose another measure of education, I guess we're stuck with them"

I don't despise them, but yes, as I said before, it's what we've got right now. Do you really think they're such a great thing?

"Check out this link, as it appears to contradict your assertion about parents who are too ignorant to teach their kids:"

I don't need a pro-homeschooling link to tell me what the average parent is capable of teaching. The group of parents that homeschool are not the same as the group of parents as a whole. Parents interested in homeschooling are very likely to be more intellectually curious than the average parent. I don't think I ever said homeschooling was a bad thing, so back off a little.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

Yes because God forbid anyone introduce a new idea to the discussion. And God forbid anyone should actually keep their comments on point . . .

The group of parents that homeschool are not the same as the group of parents as a whole. Parents interested in homeschooling are very likely to be more intellectually curious than the average parent.

I don't disagree with that. But since I've never tried to argue that every parent should homeschool, or that every parent could do an acceptable job educating their kids, I guess I don't see what your point is, other than to state the obvious and uncontested. The question was whether or not homeschooling parents can do the job at least as well as public schools, and the fact is, they can and do.

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

and now you're complaining that the individual parent has an unfair advantage, because the individual parent can focus his attention on one or two of his own kids.

not at all complaining ... just pointing out the completely different situations. Some folks would take that bit of info and run with it coming up with all sorts of inaccurate conclusions. I would not have made the comments that homeschoolers could not duplicate a facultys' accomplishment. One-on One teaching is simply the best thing one could have ... even if the teacher is sub-par.

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1) About 80% are evangelical Christians.

I would like to know the criteria of "evangelical christian", and where CG got his research from. Not that I am skeptical of the numbers, just interested in how and where the numbers come from.

2) Have a lower than normal home income

Seems to me that having one parent stay home and "teach" would automatically lower the household income ... likely into a "below average" status. Just reasonable common sense. This is one of those stats that nothing extra should be read into it.

3) Academic performance is about the same over all "

I'd like to know what they are measuring and labelling as "academic performance". Are they comparing grades (GPA) given by the teacher/parent, or some test that all students of the same grade take?

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-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

Seeing how most people write on this forum, I really don't see how in general, parents could actually teach their kids better than teachers...

I'd like to know what they are measuring and labelling as "academic performance". Are they comparing grades (GPA) given by the teacher/parent, or some test that all students of the same grade take?

Standardized testing, I think. From my somewhat limited research into it, it actually looks like homeschoolers outperform others. FWIW.

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Seeing how most people write on this forum, I really don't see how in general, parents could actually teach their kids better than teachers

Good point. On the other hand, where do you think all of us boobs didn't learn to read and rite? In schools, that's were! ;)

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

I know you were joking, thank goodness for the always useful smiley face, but doesn't in this debate the issue of the ability or willingness to learn get lost? I know/knew a lot of people who wouldn't have learned if it was their parent, the President or the Pope teaching them.

doesn't in this debate the issue of the ability or willingness to learn get lost?

Actually, I think that issue- ability and/or willingness to learn- is one of the big reasons some people choose homeschooling. While I'm sure there are some few kids who are just hopeless cases, I think they're a tiny, tiny, tiny minority. I think many homeschoolers have found that the schools are simply unable to cater to their kids' motivational needs, and that situation can sometimes be dealt with better in a one-on-one setting. (Likewise, I know parents who homeschool some of their kids, but find that one of their kids does better in a classroom setting.)

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

I think many homeschoolers have found that the schools are simply unable to cater to their kids' motivational needs, and that situation can sometimes be dealt with better in a one-on-one setting. (Likewise, I know parents who homeschool some of their kids, but find that one of their kids does better in a classroom setting.)

I think that may be one of the most accurate statements in this whole discussion. Despite stereotypes, I don't think home-schooling is an issue many parents take lightly. For one, it means they'll be living on one income (most likely). In today's world, one income means a (comparatively) lower-standard of living, possibly ebordering the poverty line. It's a sacrifice they make, most often (IMO), because it is best for their learner. One-on-One learning is extremelly valuable, it's the reason why schools try and get as many after-school tutoring programs as they can. Unfortunately, there is often a lack of funding and personel to meet those needs.

The greatest challenge in teaching is not the material/content ... it's designing a curriculum that includes a wide array of methods and materials that will spark the motivation and invite as many of the learners in the class. The biggest disappointment is when you can't figure out how to reach each student. Sometimes you're limited by experience/knowledge, sometimes by time, sometimes by the student themself. Whatever the case, most teachers hate it when they can't reach everyone. It's a missed opportunity at creating a lifelong learner.

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-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --