Yeah, no shit they were for middle school and high school. What the fuck do you think we're talking about? Adult sex ed classes?

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You're a sicko...man people like you need help...

And you might be the dumbest man alive. What age range did you tihnk we're talking about? Where do you think these abtinence+condom programs are being taught? Sex ed happens mainly in high school

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3 of the 4 programs are being done in middle schools to kids. MINORS!!! You seriously think that the introduction of condom, birth control and other contraceptive use should be introduced at this age. Like I said, at that age the only education that should be introduced is abstinence and the ins and outs on the biology of sex.

Newsflash - almost everyone before college is a MINOR!

Should we give 6th-graders condoms? No, I dont think so. But one of these programs is a high school program, where its perfectly appropriate to teach an abstinence+birth control sex ed program.

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3 of the 4 were middle schools!!!

Convienient for you to miss that glaring fact.

I'm not missing anything, I'm not commenting on it because it's not relevant. I already said we shouldnt be giving condoms to 6th graders.

Here's your statement:

In addition, I don't know why any parent wouldn't teach abstienence only to high schoolers.


which talks about high school. If you'd only teach abstinence to high schoolers, at what pont do you support abstinence+birth control?

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There's a difference between teaching and advocating. You seem to think the two are mutually exclusive. Only teach one or the other but not both. Presenting everything (abstinence, condoms, birth control, etc..)then advocating a particular course of action is the most thorough approach. Again, in programs where abstinence is stressed all of the options are laid out and abstinence is the preferred control until the student is ready/mature enough/relationship ready for intercourse.

There's a difference between teaching and advocating.

Um, OK

You seem to think the two are mutually exclusive Only teach one or the other but not both.

No I dont. I've said a million time, including many times on this very thread, that I support abstinence+birth control, not only one or the other.Presenting everything (abstinence, condoms, birth control, etc..)then advocating a particular course of action is the most thorough approach

No kidding. That's what everyone has been saying all along. The problem is that abstinence-only programs don't present everything. (funny how we're back to square one here)

So is what you're basically saying the following?:

In middle school only abstinence should be taught. In high school abstinence and other forms of birth cnotrol should be presented, with abstinence emphasized as the preferred option

If so, I'd agree.

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Correct. That is what I'm saying.

I've tried to read through all these comments and make sense of them. I'm not sure what the original poster's reason for posting this was.

My only comment is, and this is from a Father: If you are relying on your children getting all their sex education direction from the schools/gov/(fill in a name), and if the first time they're hearing it is in middle school - well, shame on you.

It probably makes sense if you had read the previous two (long) threads about the efficacy of viginity pledges and abstience programs.

My only comment is, and this is from a Father: If you are relying on your children getting all their sex education direction from the schools/gov/(fill in a name), and if the first time they're hearing it is in middle school - well, shame on you.

Hard to argue with that.

How's the guitar playing?

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Thanks.

Funny you should ask, I actually auditioned for a band last week. Went real well, although, I'm no rock player...But for $$, hey I'm game. Actually had to learn 5 very new songs to me, including of all things "Vertigo" by U2. Distortion here I come. Thanks for asking.

Sounds great -congrats on the good audition!

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This is exactly the age they should be given ALL of the information, high school is way too late . And by information I don't mean giving a kid a condom and a pack of birth control pills. I look at a kid who is in 7th-9th grade and I see a child but the facts are increasing numbers of middle schoolers are becoming sexually active earlier and many of those trying to stay "virgins" are engaging in oral sex. This type of behavior, while it may prevent pregnancy, it does carry with it the risk of STD's and HIV.

If you look at much of the "sex education" in parts of the country, primarily in the middle and the south, the push is towards abstinence-only with the virtual elimination about the other aspects such as birth control, safer sex, and even accurate success and failure rates of these forms of birth control. I used to be a teacher and it was scary the lack of clarity it left many with...for example, because some of them had basically been told that condoms don't work they figured "why bother anyway." You may say well thats stupid but thats the point...kids are stupid and are still going to do stupid things, a safety net may not save them from their stupidity but it at least can better their chances.

Why are you all so worried about what is being taught in the schools?

This type of education needs to come from the parents at home...not the school systems.

Set the example for your kids. Don't leave it up to others to raise them...you'll only be disappointed.

Do you really think that telling kids not to have sex is going to have an appreciable impact on their behavior?

Same deal with alcohol and drugs. Anyone want to suggest doing away with programsclasses that try to prevent teens from using alcohol and drugs. One could just as easily say "Why bother telling kids not to do drugs, they're just going to get stoned and drunk every weekend anyway"?. One word -- Duty.

Rarely, if ever, does anything good come from immature people getting involved in mature behaviors.

Based on my interactions with teens as a teacher and coach, I think a significant portion of teens would not have sex if they thought it would be acceptable ... same with alcohol and drugs. IMO, a lot of teens get involved with sex, booze, and drugs because "everyone else is doing it" and the ridicule sure to come if you dare say no. The girls at my school that said "no" did not get invited out on the weekends (even if they were hot).

Imagine the confidence a teen would have if they felt comfortable about saying, "No. I don't want to do that. All the ridicule you can offer won't change my mind". Imagine the carryover to adulthood?

However, many kids are like I was (we were). I got drunk and tried to have sex often, not so much because I loved alcohol and sex (sex is good, but I could have waited), but so I could brag about it. Had I been more comfortable and confident in my own skin, I would not have needed to go to such lengths just so I could brag, fit in, and gain a little local celebrity as the "fun guy".

As I said in another thread, this stuff (teen sex) is not "the devil" ... abstinence isn't going to cure the world. But it is far from innocent (as some are painting it). Just because everyone (or so it seems) is doing it, does not make it harmless. There are consequences, and many of them (IMO) don't start showing until years after the act(s). I don't think we have any way of knowing exactly to what degree teen sex negatively affects relationships, esteem, etc ... we focus on the stuff we can accurately measure ... incidents of STDs. It simply, ain't that simple.

I have heard(as someone else pointed out) and read about teen girls that are getting involved in oral and anal sex in order to "keep their virginity". I bet a future husband just can't wait to have that bomb dropped on him. "I'm a virgin, but ..." ... wonder what kind of effect that will have on a young women's feelings of self-worth.

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-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

I don't have a problem with trying to convince kids that having sex is a complicated issue rife with all sorts of emotional and physical impacts. That much is obvious. My problem is that increasingly, it is taught at the exclusion of contraception education, which strikes me as fundamentally ineffective, assuming the goal is to effectively reduce STD transmission and teen pregnancy.

If the goal is to teach a worldview where if you get STDs or pregnant because you weren't abstinent, and therefore you got what you deserved, then I guess this form of education is effective. But if the goal is to reduce disease proliferation, I don't think its the most effective way.

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"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" - Benjamin Franklin
"Don't you see the rest of the country looks upon New York like we're left-wing, communist, Jewish, homosexual pornographers? I think of us that way sometimes and I live here." - Alvy Singer, "Annie Hall"

That much is obvious.

Not to teens.

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I am not oppossing the teaching of contraception ... but emphasizing abstinence as "100% effective" can never be over-valued. In some ways, teacing contraception can be viewed as condoning. I am not trying to speak for all, but I'd bet many teens see it like that. "If we aren't suppossed to have sex, why are they showing us how to do it safely?". I am trying to point out that teens do not think with adult logic.

I am not certain how much of sex ed deals with emotional issues involving esteem. Incidently, I doubt that it is included much. Why? Because then the students that have already been involved in such behaviors may feel bad about the act or themselves, and schools seemingly avoid anything that might cause a student to diminish the perception of self. I doubt there is much said outside of "You should probably wait until your an adult, but we are going to inform and model some safety precautions that you can take to minimize the risksof pregnancy and STD's".

In short (and exaggerated), a parent would likely approach the school with "are you calling my girl a slut?" type of rhetoric.

I'm really not sure how to approach the situation. I do, however, find the labelling of "abstinence" programs as "religious" (or promoting a worldview) to be inaccurate and misleading. There are non-religous and selfish reasons for teens not having sex ... namely (IMO) encouraging teens to discover non-sexual ways of expressing their affection and quest for acceptance ... something not many adults seem to know how to do ... which is also problematic.

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-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --