Re: 2x20 without a power meter [sub-3-dad] [ In reply to ]

Apr 26, 12 7:59

Post #26 of 47 (5957 views)

sub-3-dad wrote:

endorphin wrote:

I also don't have a power meter and I've been doing 2x20 all winter. A reasonable (read: poor man's) alternative to power is use speed. I move my sensor from my fork to the seat stay. Provided you keep all factors constant (tension, tire pressure, temperature = big factor),
...

Temperature is a big deal with fluid trainers.
I have an Elite Crono Fluid trainer and there is a huge difference in it's resistance accross temperatures.

I find that the viscosity (and power/speed curve) levels off after about 10 minutes of intensity.

For sure. For part of the winter I had my CycleOps Fluid 2 in a room that went down to around 10 degrees C over night. The resistance would decrease significantly after it got warmed up. As my workouts are speed-based, this was a surefire way to negative split my workouts!

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Re: 2x20 without a power meter [endorphin] [ In reply to ]

Apr 26, 12 9:29

Post #27 of 47 (5931 views)

Do you know if the decrease in resistance as the trainer warms up is unique to fluid trainers? Or is that also something that happens on magnetic trainers?

Re: 2x20 without a power meter [b33r] [ In reply to ]

Apr 26, 12 9:32

Post #28 of 47 (5926 views)

Skip all the advice about heart rate. In all my years of using a power meter, a few less with heart rate, and all with perceived effort, I consider the following in order of preference for threshold workouts:

1) Power
2) Perceived effort/breathing rate
3) Heart rate

I know I'm in my threshold range when I have deep but controlled breathing (complete inhale/exhale about every 4 strokes (left-right-left-right and I've got some heaviness in the legs which worsens as time goes on. Heart rate is simply too variable.

Re: 2x20 without a power meter [b33r] [ In reply to ]

Apr 26, 12 9:33

Post #29 of 47 (5925 views)

b33r wrote:

Do you know if the decrease in resistance as the trainer warms up is unique to fluid trainers? Or is that also something that happens on magnetic trainers?

Not sure, but I doubt it is significant for magnetic trainers. Perhaps the grease in the bearings would become less viscous... Also, I wonder if the tire can become a little more supple as it warms up. Pure speculation...

CodyBeals.com | Instagram | TikTok
ASICS | Ventum | Martin's | HED | VARLO | Shimano | 4iiii | Keystone Communications

Re: 2x20 without a power meter [b33r] [ In reply to ]

Apr 26, 12 10:47

Post #30 of 47 (5885 views)

From Kurt Kinetic's website:

Quote:

We use specially selected thermodynamically neutral silicone fluid for resistance. At all temperatures, the liquid silicone will keep the same viscosity or resistance to flow. This means your resistance at the beginning of your workout will feel the same as resistance at the end of a workout. The Kinetic does not get easier as the fluid heats up.

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Re: 2x20 without a power meter [endorphin] [ In reply to ]

Apr 26, 12 13:38

Post #31 of 47 (5838 views)

Strange, I have the exact opposite with my CycleOps fluid 2. At cool temperatures (under 50 degrees F ) it is pretty easy to ride and after a couple of minutes there is a definite step increase in difficulty pedaling. Thereafter it seems to remain pretty constant. As it gets warmer ( 90+ ) the only difference I see is that there is no initial few minutes at an easier power level.

The increased resistance is interesting to feel starting. You get a single leg stroke that is suddenly harder then a few easy pedals and then another that is hard and then with in a few rotations the resistance has stepped up.

Re: 2x20 without a power meter [b33r] [ In reply to ]

Apr 26, 12 14:04

Post #32 of 47 (5827 views)

b33r wrote:

From what I've read/learned on Slowtwitch, the 2x20' trainer workout is the thing to do to get fast on the bike. I don't have a power meter - is there an effective way to simulate the workout based on how tired I am? I'm keeping everything as constant as possible (tire pressure, trainer resistance, and tension against the rear wheel), but without a power meter I really don't know if I'm going hard enough or too hard. I did it last night (10 min warmup, 20 minutes hard, 5 minutes easy, 20 minutes hard, 5 minute cooldown), but I definitely didn't feel like I left it all out there. How am I supposed to feel after this workout?

I am a fan of the flamme rouge method, I have been getting great results with it and have increased my FTP dramatically. It starts with a 20 minute all-out test to estimate FTP (FTP ~ 95% of your 20 minute power). Once you know this, the key workout is 2x20 @ 85% of FTP done twice weekly. After 3 weeks, rest for a few days and then repeat the cycle starting with the 20 minute all-out test to get a new FTP estimate. Repeat, repeat, repeat...

As to how to do this without a power meter, you have to go with what you have which will be speed (1st) and heart rate (2nd). I'm not sure how to relate power to these, especially HR which seems to vary a lot. You can certainly look at speed during the 20 minute all-out test and then use some fraction (not sure what) of that to estimate the 85%

The one thing I can tell you is that 85% of FTP is not all-out. It is not comfortable either, especially during the 2nd 20 minute interval. At least for me, the average heart rate during the 85% FTP intervals works out to almost exactly 85% of my 20 minute all-out test average heart rate.

The 85% FTP 20 minute intervals are difficult but not so difficult that you can't do well at your other training. If you go much above this you will need longer to recover and you may end up training less volume. I hear a lot of people talking about 2x20 @ 100% of FTP but I would not be able to run and swim effectively if I did those very often. With the flamme rouge method you are knocking out 1:20 per week at 85% of FTP and then 20 minutes every 3 weeks in a race-type simulation at ~105% of FTP to take your new baseline. Add a bunch of 75% riding in there as well and you are going to raise that FTP, no doubt about it. Plus you will still have enough in the tank to run and swim.

If possible, you might also try borrowing someone's power setup for the first 20 minute test and a 2x20 85% session to get a feel of what speed and HR those work out to. Good luck...

Re: 2x20 without a power meter [need4speed] [ In reply to ]

Jun 19, 12 17:26

Post #33 of 47 (5612 views)

Can average speed be used during the 20 min test to calculate FTP on the trainer (e.g. 95% x avg speed = FTP)?

Re: 2x20 without a power meter [need4speed] [ In reply to ]

Jun 19, 12 18:00

Post #34 of 47 (5590 views)

need4speed wrote:

b33r wrote:

From what I've read/learned on Slowtwitch, the 2x20' trainer workout is the thing to do to get fast on the bike. I don't have a power meter - is there an effective way to simulate the workout based on how tired I am? I'm keeping everything as constant as possible (tire pressure, trainer resistance, and tension against the rear wheel), but without a power meter I really don't know if I'm going hard enough or too hard. I did it last night (10 min warmup, 20 minutes hard, 5 minutes easy, 20 minutes hard, 5 minute cooldown), but I definitely didn't feel like I left it all out there. How am I supposed to feel after this workout?

I am a fan of the flamme rouge method, I have been getting great results with it and have increased my FTP dramatically. It starts with a 20 minute all-out test to estimate FTP (FTP ~ 95% of your 20 minute power). Once you know this, the key workout is 2x20 @ 85% of FTP done twice weekly. After 3 weeks, rest for a few days and then repeat the cycle starting with the 20 minute all-out test to get a new FTP estimate. Repeat, repeat, repeat...

As to how to do this without a power meter, you have to go with what you have which will be speed (1st) and heart rate (2nd). I'm not sure how to relate power to these, especially HR which seems to vary a lot. You can certainly look at speed during the 20 minute all-out test and then use some fraction (not sure what) of that to estimate the 85%

The one thing I can tell you is that 85% of FTP is not all-out. It is not comfortable either, especially during the 2nd 20 minute interval. At least for me, the average heart rate during the 85% FTP intervals works out to almost exactly 85% of my 20 minute all-out test average heart rate.

The 85% FTP 20 minute intervals are difficult but not so difficult that you can't do well at your other training. If you go much above this you will need longer to recover and you may end up training less volume. I hear a lot of people talking about 2x20 @ 100% of FTP but I would not be able to run and swim effectively if I did those very often. With the flamme rouge method you are knocking out 1:20 per week at 85% of FTP and then 20 minutes every 3 weeks in a race-type simulation at ~105% of FTP to take your new baseline. Add a bunch of 75% riding in there as well and you are going to raise that FTP, no doubt about it. Plus you will still have enough in the tank to run and swim.

If possible, you might also try borrowing someone's power setup for the first 20 minute test and a 2x20 85% session to get a feel of what speed and HR those work out to. Good luck...

You take breaks when going 85% of FTP? That is basically a tempo workout. You should be able to, without too much difficulty, do that for an hour or more without stopping. The 2x20 intervals are meant to be done at or near FTP. You should be able to do that twice. If you can't you've done something wrong.

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Re: 2x20 without a power meter [thagan] [ In reply to ]

Jun 19, 12 18:08

Post #35 of 47 (5579 views)

thagan wrote:

Can average speed be used during the 20 min test to calculate FTP on the trainer (e.g. 95% x avg speed = FTP)?

This question is making me want to audit my training data....

I think you can use average speed from a 20 minute test to determine your "Trainer FTsP" (functional threshold speed). I don't have the data to confirm whether or not the .95 multiplier will hold but I would suspect that in the range of speeds and powers you would be encountering in FTP training, there is a strong linear relationship between average power output for an interval duration and average speed for that duration. Translation - using average speed on 2x20 workouts would probably be an excellent indicator of fitness, week to week provided you control the rolling resistance as best you can.

Erik
Strava

Re: 2x20 without a power meter [Rambler] [ In reply to ]

Jun 19, 12 19:12

Post #36 of 47 (5529 views)

Rambler wrote:

I don't have a power meter because I don't really care about numbers. When do the workout the 1st 20 isn't too bad...

Why do you use 20 minutes if you aren't concerned with the numbers? How do you measure progress?
-SD

Re: 2x20 without a power meter [thagan] [ In reply to ]

Jun 19, 12 19:19

Post #37 of 47 (5524 views)

thagan wrote:

Can average speed be used during the 20 min test to calculate FTP on the trainer (e.g. 95% x avg speed = FTP)?

No. Most trainers have a speed-power curve available though that provides a power number for a particular speed. You just need a computer to log the speed every second or so and calculate average power using a spreadsheet.

Re: 2x20 without a power meter [b33r] [ In reply to ]

Jun 19, 12 19:19

Post #38 of 47 (5524 views)

Try doing Sufferfest Hell Hath No Fury ($12.99). I think it is one of the best 2x20 workouts out there. You can try to follow the instructions on the screen and their 1-10 pain scale and go with that. You can put your HR monitor on but I would try doing it without following your HR. I think HR is not that good of an indicator for these workouts. If you get TrainerRoad and Hell Hath No Furyt then you are in for a treat.

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Re: 2x20 without a power meter [gregf83] [ In reply to ]

Jun 19, 12 19:25

Post #39 of 47 (5509 views)

That's true. Some of them are dead accurate, like the kurt kinetic formula (although there's a typo on their site).

Some are wildly inaccurate.

CEO at TrainerRoad
Co-host of the Ask a Cycling Coach Podcast

Re: 2x20 without a power meter [b33r] [ In reply to ]

Jun 19, 12 19:28

Post #40 of 47 (5504 views)

b33r wrote:

I have the Blackburn Tech Mag 6. I wasn't aware that some trainers get easier as they heat up.

Also, I heard of TrainerRoad today and just ordered an Ant+ cadence/speed sensor for my bike - I'm hoping the ~$40 purchase (plus the monthly subscription) can give me a decent approximation of my actual wattage.

I started in with TrainerRoad after I got my KK road machine in December. Was very impressed with it's capability and workouts and loved working with power. Just got myself a PowerTap (Nate at TR should receive a commission from Cycleops) and my FTP tests have been exceptionally close to what I was doing with TrainerRoad. Of course, even if the cal is 15% off for your Blackburn, it doesn't make the workouts any less valid. to some extent, it's just a number around which your workouts are built and training stress scores are calculated. It really doesn't matter if your 'actual' FTP number is different... except for bragging rights. (which, of course, is the most important part)

Re: 2x20 without a power meter [Nate Pearson] [ In reply to ]

Jun 19, 12 19:36

Post #41 of 47 (5485 views)

I've always used: Power = 5.24482 * V + 0.01968 V^3 for the KK

Do you mean the missing '^' on their website or something else?

Re: 2x20 without a power meter [gregf83] [ In reply to ]

Jun 19, 12 19:41

Post #42 of 47 (5478 views)

I believe it's 0.019168. That's what one of their engineers told us. We are verifying their curve with our own crank armstrong right now.

That doesn't make a big difference though, I think it's like 3 watts around 250watts or something...too lazy to do the math right now, I'm sick :( boo hoo.

CEO at TrainerRoad
Co-host of the Ask a Cycling Coach Podcast

Re: 2x20 without a power meter [b33r] [ In reply to ]

Jun 19, 12 19:45

Post #43 of 47 (5475 views)

I've just gotten up to 3x20' at roughly FTP (slightly higher, maybe), and its the kind of workout where I feel awful at the end of the third interval, like I don't want to take another pedal, but then after the five minutes of rest, and another five minutes of "build", can do 30 more minutes of EZ pace at 60-66% of FTP before calling it quits.

Re: 2x20 without a power meter [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]

Jun 19, 12 19:45

Post #44 of 47 (5475 views)

Ex-cyclist wrote:

need4speed wrote:

b33r wrote:

From what I've read/learned on Slowtwitch, the 2x20' trainer workout is the thing to do to get fast on the bike. I don't have a power meter - is there an effective way to simulate the workout based on how tired I am? I'm keeping everything as constant as possible (tire pressure, trainer resistance, and tension against the rear wheel), but without a power meter I really don't know if I'm going hard enough or too hard. I did it last night (10 min warmup, 20 minutes hard, 5 minutes easy, 20 minutes hard, 5 minute cooldown), but I definitely didn't feel like I left it all out there. How am I supposed to feel after this workout?

I am a fan of the flamme rouge method, I have been getting great results with it and have increased my FTP dramatically. It starts with a 20 minute all-out test to estimate FTP (FTP ~ 95% of your 20 minute power). Once you know this, the key workout is 2x20 @ 85% of FTP done twice weekly. After 3 weeks, rest for a few days and then repeat the cycle starting with the 20 minute all-out test to get a new FTP estimate. Repeat, repeat, repeat...

As to how to do this without a power meter, you have to go with what you have which will be speed (1st) and heart rate (2nd). I'm not sure how to relate power to these, especially HR which seems to vary a lot. You can certainly look at speed during the 20 minute all-out test and then use some fraction (not sure what) of that to estimate the 85%

The one thing I can tell you is that 85% of FTP is not all-out. It is not comfortable either, especially during the 2nd 20 minute interval. At least for me, the average heart rate during the 85% FTP intervals works out to almost exactly 85% of my 20 minute all-out test average heart rate.

The 85% FTP 20 minute intervals are difficult but not so difficult that you can't do well at your other training. If you go much above this you will need longer to recover and you may end up training less volume. I hear a lot of people talking about 2x20 @ 100% of FTP but I would not be able to run and swim effectively if I did those very often. With the flamme rouge method you are knocking out 1:20 per week at 85% of FTP and then 20 minutes every 3 weeks in a race-type simulation at ~105% of FTP to take your new baseline. Add a bunch of 75% riding in there as well and you are going to raise that FTP, no doubt about it. Plus you will still have enough in the tank to run and swim.

If possible, you might also try borrowing someone's power setup for the first 20 minute test and a 2x20 85% session to get a feel of what speed and HR those work out to. Good luck...

You take breaks when going 85% of FTP? That is basically a tempo workout. You should be able to, without too much difficulty, do that for an hour or more without stopping. The 2x20 intervals are meant to be done at or near FTP. You should be able to do that twice. If you can't you've done something wrong.

x2. Lets put some numbers to this. Lets say your 20 minute power is 300 watts. 95% is 285 and 85% of that number is is 242. That is a number that you should be hitting for HIM. If you want best results you should be doing your 2x20s between 95-100%. So your range would be 270-285. What is happening is that the 20 minute all out is over estimating your FTP and the 85% is more like 90%

Re: 2x20 without a power meter [Nate Pearson] [ In reply to ]

Jun 19, 12 19:49

Post #45 of 47 (5469 views)

Nate Pearson wrote:

I believe it's 0.019168. That's what one of their engineers told us. We are verifying their curve with our own crank armstrong right now.

Thanks! That should make me a little more powerful next indoor season. I found a much bigger change when I used the trainer outdoors in freezing temps.

Re: 2x20 without a power meter [gregf83] [ In reply to ]

Jun 19, 12 19:50

Post #46 of 47 (5465 views)

Yah, there can big changes with different tires and tension on the wheels. It really varies trainer to trainer. I think on the 1up an extra half turn can be 30 watts. I don't have the data in front of me so don't hold me to that, but it's something crazy big like that.

CEO at TrainerRoad
Co-host of the Ask a Cycling Coach Podcast

Re: 2x20 without a power meter [Nate Pearson] [ In reply to ]

Apr 11, 17 5:44

Post #47 of 47 (2500 views)

Reviving an old thread. Did my first 2x20 today. Ouch! Haha.

So since I chose this thread, it's obvious I don't have a PM. I monitored my HR during this, but didn't gauge my effort from it. I pretty much just went RPE of about 9.9/10...as hard as I consistently could go for 20 mins without blowing up or falling off my bike.

My question - what should the cadence be like for these? I did it outdoors, there's a park nearby me with great 0.5 mi paved loop with a bike lane. I don't have a trainer so pls no one tell me to do it indoors, it's just not an option. I played around between 2 gears, the harder gear got my HR up a few more BP, and speed by maybe 0.5 mph but I couldn't hold the cadence and it felt more like a big gear workout just slowly mashing a huge gear. Kicker of this is I also don't have cadence meter, but should I feel like I'm mashing a big gear with a slower cadence or having a solid and steady cadence in a slightly "easier" gear for the workout to have max effect? Easier is in quotes bc that gear still hurt like hell!

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