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Re: Mistake to remove Terri Schiavos feeding tube? [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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None of which has anything to do with the fact that Shiavo looked for therapies and they didn't work, whereas the firefighter was in therapy that was apparently doing something for him......

Terri Schiavo only received therapy for 7 yrs. Her husband pulled the plug when he himself decided they weren't doing any good..not the doctors or therapists. He decided that his vows "sickness and health" didn't apply and he really meant "as long as someone else is paying."

The firefighter received it for 9 years until it did him some good...it apparently worked for him as he woke out of it. Terri never got that chance...her husband was too busy with other things...

I know the Schiavo case fairly well since I had to keep directing people to the facts when they decided to ignore them in favor of rhetoric.

You knew the facts as much as you could comprehend them which appears to be very little...seems you overlooked a few...like this factual timeline of the case...
  • Terri’s collapse occurred in February 1990. Michael Schiavo blames the collapse on a potassium imbalance despite testimony by a neurologist that Terri arrived at the hospital with a neck injury. The Schindlers, Terri’s parents, theorize that Michael may have tried to strangle her.
  • Michael Schiavo, his brother, and his sister-in-law claim Terri made “casual” statements that she would not want to be kept alive artificially. [Note: Under Florida law feeding tubes are considered artificial life support.]
  • Statements attributed to Terri by her friend, Diane Meyer, about the Karen Ann Quinlan case was ruled by Judge Greer to not fit a factual time-line. Greer ruled that Terri could not have made those statements about Quinlan in 1982 as Meyer testified because Greer believed Quinlan died in 1976 when Terri was but 11 or 12 years old. [Note: Quinlan in fact collapsed in 1975 and after a considerable court battle was taken off her respirator only to continue breathing on her own. Quinlan died of pneumonia in 1985. An autopsy showed that her cardiac arrest had not caused severe damage to her cerebral cortex as doctors had thought but instead, the thalamus.]
  • The Schindlers state that Michael never claimed Terri would not want to live- until after winning a $2 million malpractice settlement. Schiavo petitioned to have Terri’s feeding tube removed in 1998. In 1992, WND reports that Schiavo pleaded that he wanted to take care of his wife for the rest of her life and was studying nursing so that he could do so in their home. He asked for $20 million to cover her medical expenses and estimated her life expectancy to be 50 years.
  • As reported by WND, Michael Schiavo told the court in 1992, "I believe in my wedding vows. ... I believe in the vows I took with my wife, through sickness, in health, for richer or poor. I married my wife because I love her and I want to spend the rest of my life with her. I'm going to do that."
  • A woman Schiavo reportedly dated for a year in 1992, Cindy Shook, gave the Schindlers a deposition in 2001 stating that Michael told her "How the hell should I know? We never spoke about this. My God, I was only 25 years old. How the hell should I know? We were young. We never spoke of this."
  • Michael Schiavo is engaged to another woman and has had 2 children by this other woman.
  • On the strength of Cindy’s testimony, Civil Court Judge Frank Quesada ordered Terri’s feeding tube reinserted in 2001.
  • $1.3 million was placed in a medical trust fund to care for Terri. [Note: Electronic copies of affidavits from nurses and a physical therapist that that Michael Schiavo had ordered Terri not to receive rehabilitative therapy to include being taken outdoors, have windows open have a radio playing, have television, receive medical treatment for infections, or have her wheel chair repaired.]
  • Michael was awarded $600 thousand to compensate him for his loss.
  • Michael Schiavo’s primary attorney, George Felos, was paid fees totaling $358,434. A second attorney, Deborah Bushnell was paid $80,309. WND reports only $50 thousand of the malpractice award remains.
  • WND continues on to report that in the early years when Terri did receive therapy she had progressed to the point that she would say “yes,” “no,” “mommy,” “stop that,” and express pain. [Note: Supported by electronic copies of affidavits.] Michael Schiavo insists that Terri has not spoken a word since 1990.
  • In 2001, an appellate court ordered Terri reevaluated by 5 doctors- 2 selected by Schiavo, 2 selected by the Schindlers, and 1 selected by Judge Greer. The 2 petitioned by Schiavo’s attorney as well as the doctor petitioned by Greer testified that Terri remained in a persistent vegetative state. The doctors petitioned by the Schindlers testified that Terri was not in PVS. Interestingly enough, WND reported that one of the two Schiavo doctors was a medical ethicist and proponent of euthanasia, Ronald Cranford. WND goes on to report that Cranford is a member of the board of directors for the Choice In Dying Society that promotes doctor assisted suicide. He was also a guest speaker at the Hemlock Society, now called the End Of Life Choices. In 1997 Cranford wrote a piece for the Minneapolis Star Tribune titled “When A Feeding Tube Borders On Barbaric.”
  • Court documents show that persistent vegetative state is misdiagnosed 40-60% of the time. [Note: Cranford may have misdiagnosed a policeman shot in the line of duty. Cranford reportedly diagnosed Sgt. David Mack as “definitely in a persistent vegetative state….never to regain cognitive, sapient functioning….” Sgt. Mack awoke some 20 months later and is reported elsewhere to have eventually gotten back nearly all of is mental faculties.]


http://www.catholicexchange.com/...d=2&art_id=26177
  • Schindler’s attorney, George Felos is himself a right-to-die proponent and was the legal counsel for another high-profile Florida right-to-die case

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Re: Mistake to remove Terri Schiavos feeding tube? [Shad] [ In reply to ]
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I can definitely see it that way. I can't decide what the process would be if I were that guy waking up. I'm not sure if I'd be overjoyed when realizing that I actually woke up, or if I would feel remorse about missing ten years.

It's probably both, so I guess the glass is half empty/full all at the same time.
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Re: Mistake to remove Terri Schiavos feeding tube? [Brian286] [ In reply to ]
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You're an idiot, and I've gone over the actual facts of this case more often than I care to recall.

The point is that the Schiavo case has very little to do with this new case. The fact that both people had some sort of brain injury doesn't make the cases comparable.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: Mistake to remove Terri Schiavos feeding tube? [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
You're an idiot, and I've gone over the actual facts of this case more often than I care to recall.

The point is that the Schiavo case has very little to do with this new case. The fact that both people had some sort of brain injury doesn't make the cases comparable.


I can see your argument has broken down by your response.

Better luck next time...
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Re: Mistake to remove Terri Schiavos feeding tube? [Brian286] [ In reply to ]
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I haven't read/found much commentary from doctors on the similarities (I'm guessing most wouldn't want to offer a casual opinion without full knowledge of the cases and particulars), but an assistant professor of neurology at the Mount Sinai School of Medicine in New York City has offered:


"Terry Shiavo was a completely different scenario because she was in a persistent vegetative state," Carver added. "This [Herbert] is a man who, as best as we know, had a greater degree of functioning in terms of his brain for the past 10 years. This is someone who was able to eat, able to say yes and no, someone who was able to sit and watch television, though he had some difficulty with vision. While he was obviously quite devastated from what happened to him, he was nonetheless neurologically functioning at a very different level from Terri Schiavo." http://www.forbes.com/...05/hscout525539.html


I don't think this makes him an expert on both cases, and I'm guessing some other doctors elsewhere might offer opinions to the contrary at some point, but this is the only medical opinion I've found. The same article also states:


One thing that does seem clear is that Herbert's case is entirely different from that of Terri Schiavo and that Shiavo was highly unlikely to have experienced this kind of awakening, had she lived, experts said.


Would have been nice to know who these experts are, but at this point I have no reason to not trust Forbes.



Have you found any sources that support the WND claims below? (besides the one that has the affadavit support)
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Re: Mistake to remove Terri Schiavos feeding tube? [Brian286] [ In reply to ]
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Apples come in many colors. Some are red, Some are green. I like yellow.

All oranges are...orange.
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Re: Mistake to remove Terri Schiavos feeding tube? [elund] [ In reply to ]
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all these cases have made my wife and I do one thing...see a lawyer to have a document stating that we sure don't want to be kept alive artificially with something to help you breath, feed you etc...

all those concerned with these cases should do the same.
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Re: Mistake to remove Terri Schiavos feeding tube? [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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Excellent advice. I've done the same.
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Re: Mistake to remove Terri Schiavos feeding tube? [Brian286] [ In reply to ]
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"I can see your argument has broken down by your response."

My argument broke down because it was 1230AM and i was enjoying some Cinco de Mayo beverages. Let's review again, since you didn't listen while this case was actually going on.

"The Schindlers, Terri’s parents, theorize that Michael may have tried to strangle her"

Yes, and they are certainly unbiased. the evidence of trauma was actually raised in '91 when a bone scan was done that showed evidence of some former trauma. There was no evidence that pointed to Michael Schiavo instead of a fall when she collapsed or some other injury. If he had choked her causing her injury, do you really think the doctors he sued for malpractice wouldn't have shown evidence of that and won their suit?

"Michael Schiavo is engaged to another woman and has had 2 children by this other woman."

Which means what exactly?

"The firefighter received it for 9 years until it did him some good...it apparently worked for him as he woke out of it. Terri never got that chance...her husband was too busy with other things.."

What a load of crap. The firefighter continued to get therapy because he apparently responded almost right away. Terri Schiavo did not, and no credible source has reported that she was speaking.

All of you financial crap doesn't mean much. Michael Schiavo recieved a lot of money. He spent a lot of it on legal fees, a lot of it on Terri's care, and some of it (most likely) on himself. He was also offered quite a bit more money to just leave her alone and let the parents take care of her, which he turned down. Apparently he wasn't just greedy, but I don't expect you to pay attention to the facts on both sides. He was also by Terri's side thoughout the years and her nurses and doctors have said he was her most frequent visitor, regardless of his new girlfriend and children. When she was in her last days he was the one who moved into the hospice to be with her while her parents demonstrated outside. Neither side of this had a good time during the issue, but there's simply no credible evidence that Schiavo choked his wife, or that he was out to get rid of her.

On top of all that, none of Michael Schiavo's alleged motives have anything to do with the fact that this firefighter wascommunicating and responding to therapy during the entire duration of his treatment, and Terri schiavo was not. their conditions are similar only in that they both had brain injuries.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: Mistake to remove Terri Schiavos feeding tube? [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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Dude, really, why bother... it's a waste of your time.

The firefighter was not in a persistent vegtetative state. He responded to the new drug regimen in 3 months.

Terri Schiavo was in a PVS, and didnt respond to 7 years of therapy.

There will still always be nimrods who insist that these cases are the same...

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Re: Mistake to remove Terri Schiavos feeding tube? [jhc] [ In reply to ]
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Not a "nimrod" myself or a medical expert, nor I do know enough about the similarities/differences between the two. I wonder at what point then would it be justified to discontinue caring for the firefighter? I mean why is 3 months OK but not 7 years? Maybe I am just thick headed but I still do not get why, if her parents were willing to foot the medical bills, anyone else cares if Terri Schiavo were alive or dead?
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Re: Mistake to remove Terri Schiavos feeding tube? [armytriguy] [ In reply to ]
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Well, we know that Terri didnt want to be maintained in the condition she was in... don't her wishes count for something?

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Re: Mistake to remove Terri Schiavos feeding tube? [jhc] [ In reply to ]
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That's the issue at hand. It was very unclear as to what her wishes were...
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Re: Mistake to remove Terri Schiavos feeding tube? [jhc] [ In reply to ]
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Thats what I am not clear on. There was no living will. Thats at the heart of this whole mess.
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Re: Mistake to remove Terri Schiavos feeding tube? [armytriguy] [ In reply to ]
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There was no will but she clearly stated her wishes to her husband and (years earlier) to her mother - this is from court testimony, and probably the reason why the Schindlers consistently lost every legal challenge they brought.

But we've been over this a million times before...

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Re: Mistake to remove Terri Schiavos feeding tube? [jhc] [ In reply to ]
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Isn't it funny how in a criminal proceeding, a guy is definitvely said to be "guilty" if he's so found by the jury (or judge, in a bench trial), but in a civil matter, where several different courts have determined that Terri Schiavo's wishes were that she would not want to be kept alive in the type of condition she was in, it's still "unclear?"


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Steve Perkins
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Re: Mistake to remove Terri Schiavos feeding tube? [armytriguy] [ In reply to ]
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That's what makes this such a controversial and open/peculiar case.

Her husband stated that she would never want to live in this manner but it was never put in writing.

Her parents offered to take on her care and relieve him of this burden but he refused even while taking up residence with another women and having kids with her.

There was too much left for interpretation and conjecture to allow Mr Schiavo to kill her. It seems that in cases like this we should err on the side of life.
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Re: Mistake to remove Terri Schiavos feeding tube? [steveperx] [ In reply to ]
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Isn't it funny how in a criminal proceeding, a guy is definitvely said to be "guilty" if he's so found by the jury (or judge, in a bench trial), but in a civil matter, where several different courts have determined that Terri Schiavo's wishes were that she would not want to be kept alive in the type of condition she was in, it's still "unclear?"



Many things are "unclear" to those who do not wish to have facts clarified.

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Re: Mistake to remove Terri Schiavos feeding tube? [armytriguy] [ In reply to ]
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"I mean why is 3 months OK but not 7 years?"

It's not a matter of 3 months or 7 years. It's a matter of 3 months in which the firefighter showed response to therapy vs 7 years in which Terri Schiavo didn't show any response to therapy. This is a failry strange discussion overall. The two cases are not related. The firefighter was not in a persistent vegetative state, and Schiavo was. It's like posing this question:

Well, with the horse that broke it's leg, you shot him, but with the horse that sprained it's ankle, you put him in a splint to heal. What the hell is wrong with you? Why didn't you treat the two cases the same way?

Surprise surprise, differing medical conditions required different treatments and resolutions.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: Mistake to remove Terri Schiavos feeding tube? [armytriguy] [ In reply to ]
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Our actions are not a problem for God.



Dirt
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Re: Mistake to remove Terri Schiavos feeding tube? [Brian286] [ In reply to ]
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Michael Schiavo’s primary attorney, George Felos, was paid fees totaling $358,434. A second attorney, Deborah Bushnell was paid $80,309. WND reports only $50 thousand of the malpractice award remains

Michael Schiavo hired lawyers? - How dare he -Why he must be guilty!

I don't know why I even bother - but here goes (sorry about the poor formatting):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schiavo

The lack of oxygen to the brain suffered after Terri's heart attack in 1990 caused catastrophic brain damage and left Terri partially blind. In 1998, Dr. Jeffrey Karp and Dr. Victor Gambone, Terri's primary care physician, determined Terri to be in an irreversible persistent vegetative state (PVS).

Dr. Ron Cranford, a neurologist at the University of Minnesota, assessed Terri Schiavo's brain function in 2001 as part of a court-ordered examination. His exam showed that Terri's cerebral cortex had been completely destroyed and replaced by cerebrospinal fluid. The upper brain was about 80 percent destroyed, and there was also damage to the lower brain. The only part of the brain that remained intact was the brain stem, which controls involuntary functions such as breathing and heartbeat—allowing Terri to survive (with a feeding tube) even though she no longer had any cognitive function. He was quoted in Florida Today as saying, "[Terri] has no electrical activity in her cerebral cortex on an EEG (electroencephalogram), and a CT (computerized tomography) scan showed massive atrophy in that region." [12] (http://www.floridatoday.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050318/NEWS01/503180350/1006)

In 2002, a trial was held to determine whether new therapy treatments would help Terri restore any cognitive function. A new computed axial tomography scan (CAT scan) was done, and showed severe cerebral atrophy. An EEG showed no measurable brain activity.

Five doctors were selected to provide their expert testimony to the trial: two by Terri's parents, two by Michael Schiavo, and one by the court. Terri's parents selected Dr. William Maxfield (the Schindlers' family doctor, who was a radiologist [NOT A Neurologist] Dr. William Hammesfahr (who made claims about vasodilation therapy that the court found spurious, [13] (http://www.2dca.org/opinion/June%2006%2C%202003/2D02-5394.pdf) and who later falsely claimed to be a Nobel Prize nominee, being "nominated" by someone who was ineligible to nominate him. [14] (http://mediamatters.org/items/printable/200503220009)). Michael Schiavo selected Dr. Cranford and Dr. James Barnhill. The court selected Dr. Peter Bambakidis. These five doctors examined Terri Schiavo's medical records, brain scans, the videos, and Terri herself. Cranford, Barnhill, and Bambakidis said Terri was in a PVS. Maxfield and Hammesfahr said Terri was in a "minimally conscious state." Greer ruled that Terri Schiavo was in a PVS and was beyond hope of significant improvement. [15] (http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/trialctorder11-02.txt) Florida's Second District Court of Appeal reviewed all the evidence and upheld the trial court's decision, saying had they heard the case themselves they would have ruled the same as Greer. Judge Greer reviewed a six-hour tape of Terri and concluded that her vegetative condition was factual and not subject to legal dispute.

Three Florida neurologists viewed 12 of Terri's CT scans on March 22, 2005. [16] (http://www.miami.edu/ethics/schiavo/CT%20scan.png) After viewing the scans, Dr. Leon Prockop (a professor and former chairman of the neurology department at the University of South Florida's College of Medicine) was quoted by the Sun-Sentinel as saying that Terri's scan exhibits the "most severe brain damage as I've ever seen." Dr. Walter Bradley, the chairman of neurology at the University of Miami's Miller School of Medicine, said that he "doubts there's any activity going on in the higher levels of her brain." Dr. Michael T. Pulley said, "The chance that this person is going to recover is about zero." [17] (http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/nation/11213061.htm)

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Re: Mistake to remove Terri Schiavos feeding tube? [ChiTownJack] [ In reply to ]
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Hey man, hard unambiguous evidence is nice and all, but you're obviously unequipped to deal with zealots and partisans.

For that you just need to use spurious logic, innuendo, hearty repetition, and above, talking loud and saying nothing.

Facts, when they don't get in the way, should be distorted from the person's mouth as much as possible, and anybody can be an expert, especially from thousands of miles away, using a few minutes of excerpts from a videotape.

At least give Brian credit - he's consistent, although consistently on the wrong side of the facts, and consistently reliably on the Republican side, wherever they decide to put themselves. Isn't it amazing that people who believe erring on the side of life don't seem to have such sentiment when it comes to the sometimes nebulous world of capital murder cases?


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