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For the Wimmens By The Wimmens - Bike Racing
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My wife transitioned last year from running and dus and tris to just bike racing last year. It has been quite an adventure, a very different sport, with not enough wimmens in it (yet!)

A couple of her articles you may like, the first is an overview of Texas Women's Bike Racing this year, so far:

http://austintriathlonstore.blogspot.com/...2-spring-season.html

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Women’s sports are truly the underdogs of the underdogs, and bike racing is a prime example. Cycling is not a particularly high-profile sport in the U.S. – Lance Armstrong is its one well-known and controversial celebrity – but within this humble subset of professional and amateur competition, women’s cycling is even more obscure, if not downright invisible.

This year, however, women’s racing in Texas has elbowed its way deeper into the limelight. Most of the early season races have had large women’s fields, and several new, dedicated women’s teams have come onto the scene, including Snapple-ATC Racing and Bicycles Outback p/b Jubilee Mitsubishi. The Ghisallo Foundation is actively recruiting women new to bike racing by offering a trial program and discounted membership. Week after week, teams like Think Finance Racing, Team Seton Brain and Spine, Austin Flyers, Colavita, 787 Racing, Shama Cycles, Bike Barn, Kind Human Sports, and Velossimo are well represented in local women’s races. The FCS/Rouse elite women’s team, a powerhouse of Dallas-area and out-of-state riders, has been a dominating force at regional and national events. Last week, FCS/Rouse’s Kathryn Donovan placed fourth in the Redlands Bicycle Classic time trial on the heels of Megan Guarnier, Amber Neben, and Alison Powers.

Another older article of hers talks about how to get started if you want to give bike racing a try:

http://austintriathlonstore.blogspot.com/...t-chick-out-for.html

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Jen has made a life out of cycling. She and her husband, Chann McRae, own their own coaching business, and still actively compete. She regularly comes in at the front of the Cat 3 men's race. "Competitive cycling for me is one of those things that just gives me the opportunity to feel completely alive," she says. "Whatever sport it may be, it's when you can feel your adrenaline kicking in, your eyes wide open with a bit of fear, and your heart beating out of your chest to outperform the competition."

As a newbie, what you should know going into the sport is that no one feels completely at ease, and if they seem like they do, well, most of the time they're bluffing. There's an element of excitement and suspense to every race for every rider, because in road racing you're not out to set a best time. In fact, time doesn't matter much at all - rather, it's how you stack up to the rest of the field.

Anyway, enjoy and hopefully we will see you out at the bike races!



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: For the Wimmens By The Wimmens - Bike Racing [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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thanks for posting jack. lays the foundation for an interesting discussion of why don't more women race. it's one of the goals of my road team this year to get more women into racing. we've been struggling with local race promoters who refuse to put on a separate women's race because they don't feel the numbers justify it. yet, women who are new to racing (generally speaking) would not care to jump in with the men.

but more broadly, why is it that there are TONS of women who like to ride, do group rides, train with some regularity, and yet do not race? and, more importantly, how can we help bring down those barriers to entry?
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Re: For the Wimmens By The Wimmens - Bike Racing [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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More women racing is something I wish we had in Hawaii. Most of our races have 5-10 women so they lump us in with the Masters. Completely changes the dynamic of the race. I always thought I'd like bike racing because of the tactics involved, but I rarely do it out here.

I know that me not racing is somewhat perpetuating the problem (well, not me personally, but any women who won't race because there's not enough women). So maybe it's just an excuse to not race when the real reason is bike racing hurts more than triathlon.
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Re: For the Wimmens By The Wimmens - Bike Racing [callmefierce] [ In reply to ]
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I've been noticing a lot lately that women are discouraged from racing (in general, not just cycling). Or at least I am, by some of the attitudes out there. For example, I'll be racing xterras this year for the first time, and I'm looking to swap out my current mtb for a 29er. I've visited around 10 bike shops now, both in Madison and Chicago. Madison is a bit better, but in Chicago, I've had people try to talk me out of the more expensive bikes, tell me I don't need that nice of a bike, try to sell me the aluminum model instead of the carbon one, etc etc. But they'd sell one to my husband in a jiffy! I cannot for the life of me figure out why - but I get a lot of condescending attitude too, and I can't help but feel that everyone thinks "women don't need that nice of a bike, they can't be that good anyway." Which irritates me, makes me question my skills, and makes me want to just give up.

I wouldn't be surprised if other women felt this way, and that's why they don't race - because you feel such pressure to prove you are worth racing, that you are afraid to even try unless you are definitely already up at that pointy end. Or maybe its just me...


-----

"Alice laughed. `There's no use trying,' she said 'one can't believe impossible things.' `I daresay you haven't had much practice,' said the Queen. `When I was your age, I always did it for half-an-hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast!'"
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Re: For the Wimmens By The Wimmens - Bike Racing [callmefierce] [ In reply to ]
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I raced in college & have to keep myself from racing now - I shattered my collarbone & if that happens again I'm not sure I could recover & function well. (At least that's what I was told.) I tend to want to race aggressively & that increases some danger.

But I think it's a huge intimidation factor for most women. It's not an easy sport & it tends to have fairly closed ranks regarding tactics, teams, sponsorships, ability levels, etc. It's hugely social to train & ride as a group. But racing is a different story. To be able to really compete takes a higher level of dedication and money than I think most women are willing to put in.

Another consideration is the pure competitiveness required to race & race well. Many (I would dare say most) women are in sport for the social aspect, the camaraderie, the training for the benefits in the rest of their lives rather than purely to race & compete in something. Many of the people I swim with would much rather train & train & train & just go to the events to support the rest of us, not necessarily to compete.

My problem is certainly not competitiveness, it's not wanting to break things again by getting taken out by other riders. It's a larger safety & time issue. Just my ideas.

AW
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Re: For the Wimmens By The Wimmens - Bike Racing [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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My husband has been encouraging me to try bicycle racing, saying I have the right body type for it. There is one reason why I won't: the crashes. My husband, a bike racer, has been involved in numerous crashes in his races, and I've had the pleasure of attending to his large patches of road rash. There are dark pigmented large scars all over his body, and some spectacular injuries (ever had sprocket teeth jammed deep into your calves?).

Another reason: He has had his expensive bicycles destroyed--two of them.

None of these crashes were caused by him, and in fact, he has avoided more crashes than he has been in. I have been present when the front pack in his category of 30 riders crashed rounding a corner into the final sprint. The sound was sickening, and an ambulance took away at least one rider. The remaining 70 riders following in the middle pack managed to avoid the pileup.

It might be worth it for some, but I will stick to my no contact triathlons with their no drafting zones for now. I enjoy riding in a pack with roadies so it's not the close contact that stops me. It's the fact that I enjoy wearing summer dresses and having mostly unscarred legs.
Last edited by: karencoutts: Mar 29, 12 17:31
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Re: For the Wimmens By The Wimmens - Bike Racing [AWARE] [ In reply to ]
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AWARE wrote:
But racing is a different story. To be able to really compete takes a higher level of dedication and money than I think most women are willing to put in.

I think you are on to something here. When I bike raced in college it was my life. I would choose classes around having 4 hour blocks to train, the cycling team were my only friends, raced every weekend, etc. Post-graduation I looked for a team to join.

I found two types of teams out there for women in my area- the 100% commitment kind where you're nothing unless you're at least a cat 2, and the non-racing kind where century rides, coffee shop social rides and bike "flare" are the theme. And both of these are fantastic, but I found no middle ground. I was either going to be racing every weekend and had to "cat up" asap, or find some cool bells and feathers to decorate my bike with.

What I was looking for in my area was a team that had no minimum racing requirements, was cat 3/4, and was a mix of social and racing, and had some "normal" people on it... no luck! Much better luck with the masters swim team and the running clubs. Hopefully what I describe exists out there somewhere! I think that "middle ground" would suit a lot of women who don't want to/can't commit to bike racing 100% because they have jobs, families and/or other hobbies, but also want to race and not just do social rides. And these "middle ground" teams would make the sport grow.

I think that is what the appealing part of triathlon is for many women (and likely men too)- you can make it your life, or you can race 1 sprint per year, or you can do anything in between. With bike racing, it seems to be all or nothing. That is why, in my opinion, bike racing is less popular. We got other shit to do, too.

And now, I take my 14.42lb road racing bike for my 3 mile commute. Love it!
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Re: For the Wimmens By The Wimmens - Bike Racing [npda] [ In reply to ]
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One contributing factor may be lack of opportunities for junior girl racers. Recently received a race report from a proud dad whose 12 year old daughter turned out to be the only girl under 18 to sign up for a local race. Instead of putting her in with the boys her age, they put her in with the adult women. She started with them, but couldn't keep up at the first hill. For the life of me, I don't know why they didn't put her in with the boys her age.

No coasting in running and no crying in baseball
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Re: For the Wimmens By The Wimmens - Bike Racing [callmefierce] [ In reply to ]
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Bike racing is a totally different universe. That a bike is involved can be deceiving, not much else in common with triathlon. Kat and I were nearly scared off for good after our first real criterium race.

You pretty much need to:

1. Enjoy viscous competition
2. Be ok with the *fact* that you will eventually crash and hurt something pretty bad.

Why deal with that? Well races are cheap to enter, prizes are usually *cash* instead of finisher medals, and the drama...the drama is great. Tactics, strategy, luck. Social aspect? I would argue there is more of a social aspect to it in a way, but the social interactions are all geared toward winning. Trick people to working for you, convince people to work WITH you, make alliances, then stab them in the back at the last minute. All part of the game.

The bright side is Women's 4 races are usually pretty tame and safe, you can get a good introduction to the sport there, without having to take much risk. A lot of ladies just stay there forever. It gets tricky if you are really good, because as soon as you cat up to 3 or 2, you will be racing in the Women's open races against the best girls in your area.

Good luck, if anyone has questions I can forward them on to Kat (my wife)for you. Anyone local in Texas I can get you in touch with a couple different teams/coaches etc.






callmefierce wrote:
but more broadly, why is it that there are TONS of women who like to ride, do group rides, train with some regularity, and yet do not race? and, more importantly, how can we help bring down those barriers to entry?



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: For the Wimmens By The Wimmens - Bike Racing [AWARE] [ In reply to ]
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>>But racing is a different story. To be able to really compete takes a higher level of dedication and money than I think most women are willing to put in. <<

This is probably the closest to reality. Though in Northern California, we have lots of women racing.

4,800+ total racers, including juniors in 2010. Just in the +35 womens category, there were 135 women in 2010 and we had our own race series. In 2011, there were about 200 road/crit events from January to October, then a full cross season, plus mt. bike, plus track.

From what I've seen in Tennessee, there are very few W4 races and those I'll be racing with college girls. Most races are Womens (all cats) and small fields (under 20). We won't even going into the lack of a velodrome.

I plan to grow the race scene, somehow, some way.

clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com
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Re: For the Wimmens By The Wimmens - Bike Racing [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah, I'm pretty much anti-crashing - main reason I haven't raced, and the intimidation factor.

I have been meaning to do a bike race for a while now but the closest I get is the occasional TT and doing cyclocross as a cat4. I train some with our local women's team who is a mix of casual and more serious racer. There are specific rides deemed as more for social reasons and then there's the hammer fests with the guys' team.

I'm good with the cyclocross because there's at most 10 women in my category (more typically like 5) and it spreads out fairly quickly, so I don't usually have anyone around me when I'm racing. This way I only have to worry about what I'm doing that may or may not make me crash, instead of being concerned about others. The higher category of women start 30 sec behind the master's men and those gals definitely are more dedicated to cycling than I am, doing either mt. bike racing or road racing over the summer while I do triathlons.
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Re: For the Wimmens By The Wimmens - Bike Racing [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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A lot of the problems in women's racing just come down to numbers. Getting lumped in with the master's men, juniors, etc. Also not having a middle ground. If we had separate cat 1, cat 2, cat 3, etc, races, then there would be a place for nearly everybody, the way there is for the men. But more women need to participate before we have a large enough sample size. Austin doesn't quite have that yet, but we have a sizeable group of women riders, so *most* of the time we get our own race in the 1/2/3s and the 4s have their own as well. The 4s are a great place to start and to stay until you get comfortable.

I've found the sport incredibly rewarding (obviously...I wrote the blog post Jack linked to above), but I think it also takes some time to get used to, and some courage to get to that point. I did crash once, but it was in a race where they lumped us in with the masters men about 10 minutes before the race start. Two riders crashed ahead of me in the pack and I ran right over the top of them, went down. I just got a little road rash and chewed-up bar tape, and yes, a couple of small scars. I'm a little proud of them, to be honest. Some crashes are unavoidable, but most of the time if you stay calm, you'd be surprised by what you can do and still stay upright. Your comfort and skill level increases the more you race, and you'll also get better at avoiding bad situations. The worst thing you can do is ride scared, locking your elbows and telling yourself you're going to go down before you actually do. Women's racing is actually a much more welcoming place to start than men's, I think. Men's fields are larger and more aggressive and crash constantly. With the smaller field sizes and generally saner attitudes, women crash far, far less often.

Still, I think the setting only appeals to certain personalities. I always hated contact sports and am generally a very quiet and passive person, but I've done well at it. I'd say as long as you're intensely competitive and a little tough, and cycling is your strength, it's worth doing a couple of races to test the waters. It's challenging in ways that multisport is not, like a chess game on wheels. I love triathlon, too, of course, but they're very different types of competition. Multisport and running are more about what you can do as an individual, what kind of time you can put in, but bike racing is always about how you stack up with your competition that day, in that race, whether you can hang on and not get dropped and then what you have left to work with at the end for the sprint. The team strategy gets really interesting. Also, bike racing is a gamble - it's not just about how fast you race, but how smart you race, and sometimes simply whether you were in the right place at the right time. I like that you can't always predict who's going to win. I imagine I'll always go back and forth between bike racing and multisport because each offers a nice change of pace.

Also, Jack meant "vicious," not "viscous." We're not that slow!

-Kat
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Re: For the Wimmens By The Wimmens - Bike Racing [girlinblue] [ In reply to ]
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Haha. A peloton is kind of viscous- if each rider represents a particle, -there are both high and low viscous races! That's the exciting part, the kinetics are never the same.
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Re: For the Wimmens By The Wimmens - Bike Racing [girlinblue] [ In reply to ]
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I positively loved it - everything from the road races to the crits to the track-style races of Miss-N-Out and Team Time Trials (Little 5, obviously). I was in 3 bad crashes - skidding across the road on my helmet/head/knee in a crit, somersaulting over/through/under a pack on a cinder track and pile-driving myself into the ground from a Team Time Trial - none were my fault. Chick in front of me in a curve in the crit panicked and I got sucked in/out/through with her as I was on her wheel, someone in L5 didn't hold a line, locked up brakes and away we all went and finally, we had a weaker rider in the middle of the team that dropped speed, rubbed wheels - a-flyin' I went (that one I take partial responsibility for, being the stronger rider I knew where I shoudln't have been). The one bad wreck on my own was out in the boondocks going downhill too fast - shattered/snapped downtubs. My point dovetails yours - I was super comfy with my own skills (still probably would be after a bit) in a pack - to the point of being able to lean back into others, rub elbows, laugh and talk. The tactics were fun to plan and play and made it a blast. But unless it becomes more popular and/or I'm with a group I can trust...I've already got too many scars.

Plus I just enjoy the social part more now. I get my competitive streak satisfied in swimming & multisport. I don't need to go bombing around a crit corner anymore - the risks outweigh the benefits. The water tends to be a little softer!

AW
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Re: For the Wimmens By The Wimmens - Bike Racing [npda] [ In reply to ]
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npda wrote:
AWARE wrote:

But racing is a different story. To be able to really compete takes a higher level of dedication and money than I think most women are willing to put in.


I think you are on to something here. When I bike raced in college it was my life. I would choose classes around having 4 hour blocks to train, the cycling team were my only friends, raced every weekend, etc. Post-graduation I looked for a team to join.

I found two types of teams out there for women in my area- the 100% commitment kind where you're nothing unless you're at least a cat 2, and the non-racing kind where century rides, coffee shop social rides and bike "flare" are the theme. And both of these are fantastic, but I found no middle ground. I was either going to be racing every weekend and had to "cat up" asap, or find some cool bells and feathers to decorate my bike with.

What I was looking for in my area was a team that had no minimum racing requirements, was cat 3/4, and was a mix of social and racing, and had some "normal" people on it... no luck! Much better luck with the masters swim team and the running clubs. Hopefully what I describe exists out there somewhere! I think that "middle ground" would suit a lot of women who don't want to/can't commit to bike racing 100% because they have jobs, families and/or other hobbies, but also want to race and not just do social rides. And these "middle ground" teams would make the sport grow.

I think that is what the appealing part of triathlon is for many women (and likely men too)- you can make it your life, or you can race 1 sprint per year, or you can do anything in between. With bike racing, it seems to be all or nothing. That is why, in my opinion, bike racing is less popular. We got other shit to do, too.

And now, I take my 14.42lb road racing bike for my 3 mile commute. Love it!


I agree with this! I did the CRCA scene in New York for a season- really liked it but just couldn't make what seemed to be a full-time commitment. Unlike triathlon it is a team sport so you can't just bop in and out as you please. I did a few races as an individual, but other than better fitness that wasn't going to get me very far. It's a sport that seems to require utmost dedication- crazy early mornings on both Sat/Sun, mid-week rides, etc. Working my whole schedule around bike training didn't float my boat, so to speak. My work hours were too long and I still wanted a normal social life. And while I liked the racing aspect, doing all-day grueling training rides is just not my cup of tea, I get bored pretty quickly on a bike ride. It's why I stick to Olympics mostly in triathlon.

That said, it's probably no coincidence by far my best season in triathlon was the one I did some bike races and training on the side. You really do get in fantastic shape! I'd pick it up again out here in Seattle if it wasn't such a complete hassle (no easy access to Central Park races and training rides! Everything's a commute here).
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Re: For the Wimmens By The Wimmens - Bike Racing [npda] [ In reply to ]
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For those of you who think bike racing has to be all or nothing I would encourage you to check out a mountain bike or cyclocross race. Road racing is pretty intense but I have found the vibe at mtb and cx races to be MUCH more social and laid back. I actually think bike racing can be MORE social than triathlon since you race so much - its really fun to see the same group of women EVERY weekend during the fall at cross races. You still have to be really committed to do well but there are definitely some ladies (especially at mtb races, less so with cross) (at least where I live) who just love to ride their bikes and like the social/fun aspect of the race scene.
Last edited by: bikechick: Mar 30, 12 14:55
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Re: For the Wimmens By The Wimmens - Bike Racing [trackie clm] [ In reply to ]
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trackie clm wrote:
>>But racing is a different story. To be able to really compete takes a higher level of dedication and money than I think most women are willing to put in. <<

This is probably the closest to reality. Though in Northern California, we have lots of women racing.


Did I miss something? You moved to Tennesee?



I raced bikes very seriously for a few years. Road and track. and I was also lucky enough to train at one of the best facilities in this country-The indoor track at ADT. I was also on a very strong womens team and helped to manage that team.


There are a LOT of reasons why women don't race or when they do, they do not stick with it. Honestly, while I did enjoy racing I am SO FUCKING GLAD that I do not race anymore. I'm about to go on a ride so no time to really delve into it but the main reasons are yes. You WILL crash. As someone who works freelance I can't afford to be out of work due to a reckless junior who's convinced she's going to the olympics. Seen it happen to much, I'd much rather race with the masters men then the W3/4 . I am also an avid snowboarder and I see this with my cycing and snow friends.After having children women are MUCH more resistant to putting themselves at risk. One of my ski buddies stepped back big time after the birth of her son. She never thought she would, she said it was just an instinct. She was now responsible for her child.


the other reason is-at least here in SO Cal--that unless you make it your #1 priority in life you can't even hack it in a W4. A lot of the girls on thr 3/4 circuit are current or former professionals in another sport and 'cross train' by bike racing. We used to have a 60+ women racing here on One Day lic. She was had competed for Team USA in the 88 olympics I believe (yes, in cycling)

You can't just phone it in as far as training, then come race day just go out to complete. It's not a tri where it's you agasint the clock. It's you agasint other people and if you are dropped it's game over. It's hard to justify the cost of racing when you know you'll be dropped 5 minutes into it.

A tri you can just "participate" so if you're someone like me--someone who has a 40+ hour work week, outside social commitments and a desire to do other activities i.e. skiing or hiking it just wont work.


and I speak not only from my experience but that of many ladies who have raced for years and many who've raced for one or two and quit.
Last edited by: vmandel: Apr 3, 12 13:17
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Re: For the Wimmens By The Wimmens - Bike Racing [npda] [ In reply to ]
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npda wrote:
AWARE wrote:


What I was looking for in my area was a team that had no minimum racing requirements, was cat 3/4, and was a mix of social and racing, and had some "normal" people on it... no luck! Much better luck with the masters swim team and the running clubs. Hopefully what I describe exists out there somewhere! I think that "middle ground" would suit a lot of women who don't want to/can't commit to bike racing 100% because they have jobs, families and/or other hobbies, but also want to race and not just do social rides. And these "middle ground" teams would make the sport grow. !



that is why me and a few other girls tried to do. Make a social 3/4 team. Well, in 2 years everyone was a Cat 2 or had quit. I think you pretty much summed it all up.

And now the team is doing well and we have our kit out on lots of social type rides too. It was Win Win for our sponsors so I can't really complain. But as far as competition, no.




and if you look at the men, at least in my area, you'll see the biggest fields by FAR are the Cat 5 and the Masters. So you have dudes w/o commitment and lots o moiney (kids are gone) or you see Newbies, and I bet 1/2 them never cat up to 4.
Last edited by: vmandel: Apr 3, 12 13:25
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Re: For the Wimmens By The Wimmens - Bike Racing [vmandel] [ In reply to ]
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>>Did I miss something? You moved to Tennesee? <<

moving .... In may

clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com
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Re: For the Wimmens By The Wimmens - Bike Racing [trackie clm] [ In reply to ]
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Well, at least it's flat? No velo at all?


that is actually an area I think you can get women to compete in. things like team sprint and team pursuit. Much less risk and more about team work :) things chicks like. There aren't enough Velodromes!
Last edited by: vmandel: Apr 3, 12 18:16
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Re: For the Wimmens By The Wimmens - Bike Racing [vmandel] [ In reply to ]
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I'm stoked she's moving here. Agree there might be an opportunity to increase racing presence.
It's not flat. Not mountains, but certainly not flat.
Less risk in a team pursuit - funny as that's when I had my worst injury.

AW
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Re: For the Wimmens By The Wimmens - Bike Racing [AWARE] [ In reply to ]
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AWARE wrote:
I'm stoked she's moving here. Agree there might be an opportunity to increase racing presence.
It's not flat. Not mountains, but certainly not flat.
Less risk in a team pursuit - funny as that's when I had my worst injury.

NO KIDDING!! Not one bit of flat today! Not even in the parking lot. :-)

And if I have my way, there WILL be a velodrome someplace close. I've already got a name to pursue.

clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com
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Re: For the Wimmens By The Wimmens - Bike Racing [girlinblue] [ In reply to ]
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I started bike racing a couple years ago. I'm not sure I ever would have done it if I wasn't dating a former bike racer.

One thing I've noticed in my time racing is that it's incredibly hard to find any information on racing. I would go to the race websites and there'd be next to nothing on them. Often not even a map or start time or race distance. It was like you had to know someone who knew. It was just incredibly unwelcoming.

The other thing about bike racing is that it isn't a participation sport. You're either in the pack or you're done. I think a lot of people just want to complete something and aren't so much into
'racing against others'.

I don't find it an issue to be a solo rider. Even racing in the Cat 1/2 I find there aren't that many teams that are actually working together.

It also tends to be a young persons sport. At 44 I am usually the oldest. Lots of teens and 20 somethings.

Like you I love the strategy part of it. Racing is a blast when you're in the mix, but it totally sucks when you feel like you are going to pass out trying to keep up. I hate having someone else dictate my pace. For me that is the hardest part about bike racing (and the fact that I have to take a ferry to get most races).

Glad you guys started this thread. I wish the sport would grow too! But on the flip side the whole Grand Frondo thing seems to be taking off like crazy. I think that's where most women riders will end up.
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