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Re: The Genius of Sen. Rick Santorum (R. Pa) [jhc] [ In reply to ]
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I'll help you out, jhc.

As I see it, there are two legitimate reasons for banning incestuous relationships/marriages.

One is that they're immoral. Society has a legitimate right to legislate issues of morality. But since you've long ago tossed this out as a legitimate concern, let's move quickly to the other reason.

Government has a serious- overwhelming, even- interest in protecting the family as the fundamental building block of society. What this means is that we must, ultimately, decide upon and enforce a definition of family. It cannot be an ever-shifting, amorphous thing left up to every individual to decide for himself.

What happens when you discount this idea, and the idea that the traditional marriage/family structure must be protected is exactly what we've seen play out in our many conversations about it in here. If you don't define a marriage as a permanent institution between one man and one woman from different families, as we always have done until recently, you open the floodgates to every sort of "marriage" someone can imagine. First it becomes dissolvable, then it's open to homosexual relationships, then you can't consistently prevent polygamy, now you can't present a cogent argument against incest. (Anybody who thinks that bestiality will continue to remain illegal because of animal cruelty laws is delusional, btw.) It won't stop there, either- there will be other alterations that you'll be just as unable to prevent. But my imagination isn't that good.

Now, none of those things in and of themselves will bring down society, for the simple reason that not many people will desire to take part in them. There aren't many homosexuals, and probably far fewer who would seek a polygamous or incestuous marriage. BUT, the damage will be in how allowing these practices affects mainstream attitudes towards marriage, and how much value the majority of people place on the institution. Disastorous.








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: The Genius of Sen. Rick Santorum (R. Pa) [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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THe taboos statement was yours dude

"You keep talking about taboos, as if that means anything. It doesn't"

If you cant think of a good reason to ban incest, I dont really care.

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Re: The Genius of Sen. Rick Santorum (R. Pa) [jhc] [ In reply to ]
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THe taboos statement was yours dude

Right. What I was trying to say is that since you've invalidated sexual taboos as legal arguments in one area, you can't turn around and use them here. You're whole argument for gay marriage hinges on the idea that taboos against homosexual relationships can't be legislated, since doing so would violate someone's rights. You can't now use taboos against incest as a legal ground for banning incest.

If you cant think of a good reason to ban incest, I dont really care.

Of course I can. But like I said in my previous post, you've already thrown out the best reasons I can give as right wing nonsense. So what I'm curious to know is what reason you can offer, instead?








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: The Genius of Sen. Rick Santorum (R. Pa) [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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I hasnt read your post above when I made my last reply.

And I guess I think we have to be very careful when "legislating morality" because more often than not, it ends up being legislating religion which violates the 1st Amendment under any mainstream interpretation of the Constitution.

You point on the state not really taking steps to prevent genetic abnormalities in other cases is interesting... I'm going to have to tihnk about that. Still, I don't buy your main argument about maintaining a traditional definition of the family. I think the CNN article you posted had much better arguments against incest...

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Re: The Genius of Sen. Rick Santorum (R. Pa) [jhc] [ In reply to ]
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Still, I don't buy your main argument about maintaining a traditional definition of the family.

I'm aware. Which is why I'm so curious to see if you can provide a different reason that you think will hold up. So far, nope.

I think the CNN article you posted had much better arguments against incest...

Those being?








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: The Genius of Sen. Rick Santorum (R. Pa) [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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These ones... esp. #1

According to Mead, the taboo has strong benefits: Because certain sexual and marital relationships are categorically forbidden, and the categorical ban is instilled early on in children's minds, children can grow and develop affectionate, close bonds with a wide span of relatives, without the intrusion of "inappropriate sexuality." Children can "wander freely, sitting on laps, pulling beards, and nestling their heads against comforting breasts-neither tempting nor being tempted beyond their years."

Levi-Strauss focused on the benefits of the incest taboo to society at large. The ban on intrafamily marriage forces families to reach outward and connect with other families -- and it is those connections between many different families that make society function.

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Re: The Genius of Sen. Rick Santorum (R. Pa) [jhc] [ In reply to ]
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While I don't disagree with either one of those arguments (in fact, I rather think they're a subset of my larger argument), if you think they're likely to withstand today's typical court scrutiny, you be crazy.

With regards to number one: The argument, obviously, will be that what's in question isn't incest with a minor, but only incest between two adults of the age of majority. There will be much wailing and gnashing of teeth at the suggestion that these two people, who are deeply in love with each other, could ever harm a child. Just like being gay doesn't make one a pederast, loving your grown-up sister doesn't make you a child molester. How dare you accuse them of such sickening behavior? And so on.

With regards to number two: This one would get laughed right out of court, particularly since society is already become far more insular than it used to be. Even if that weren't the case, and families were as connected as they used to be, I don't see many courts denying someone the right to marry who they want because it would mean the resulting family is somewhat more isolated than they otherwise would be.








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: The Genius of Sen. Rick Santorum (R. Pa) [jhc] [ In reply to ]
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"No, it means the majority has ceded the authority. Big difference."

Well, since it's been awhile since we got every single person in the U.S. to agree to anything, the majority is how we do it here. It's not like there's been a centuries long fight to get your anal sex rights back. The idea that govt has no business in the bedroom is relatively new.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: The Genius of Sen. Rick Santorum (R. Pa) [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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If gay marriage, incestual marriage, and polygamy came before the Supreme Court - I'd suspect that the liberal/center-keft justices would apply a rational basis test to the incest and polygamy issues, and would uphold the laws. On the other hand, I'd suspect that they'd apply a "rational basis+" (like O'Connor in Lawrence) or possibly even an intermediate scrutiny test if liberal enough, to the gay marriage issue. The outcome of this case would of course depend on the composition of the Court.

Tha's the reason I'm faily confidant that gay marriage will eventually be legalized (probably via the Courts) but not polygamy or incestual marriages.

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Re: The Genius of Sen. Rick Santorum (R. Pa) [jhc] [ In reply to ]
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I'd suspect that they'd apply a "rational basis+"

"Rational basis +"?? Are you just making stuff up now?

Tha's the reason I'm faily confidant that gay marriage will eventually be legalized (probably via the Courts) but not polygamy or incestual marriages.

What you're saying is that since you think enough judges will eventually agree with you on gay marriage, they'll find a way to mandate it, and since you assume that they'll continue to think as you do that polygamy and incest are icky, they'll find a way to keep those practices illegal. Sounds like an honest, above-board approach to me.








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: The Genius of Sen. Rick Santorum (R. Pa) [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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"Rational basis +"?? Are you just making stuff up now?

If you had read this thread more carefully and/or O'Connor's opinion in Lawrence you'd know what I'm talking about.What you're saying is that since you think enough judges will eventually agree with you on gay marriage, they'll find a way to mandate it, and since you assume that they'll continue to think as you do that polygamy and incest are icky, they'll find a way to keep those practices illegal. Sounds like an honest, above-board approach to me.


Actually, what I think is that since homosexuality is an innate, innocous characteristic of a significant number of people (and yes, I consider 1-10% significant, whatever the true number is), laws which discriminate against gays require a higher level of scrutiny than those which discriminate against polygamists or.. uh.. incesters, which actually is a lifestyle choice and at least in some circmstances has been shown to have real, negative effects.

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Re: The Genius of Sen. Rick Santorum (R. Pa) [jhc] [ In reply to ]
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If you had read this thread more carefully and/or O'Connor's opinion in Lawrence you'd know what I'm talking about

I read it, jhc. Point is, you're not even attempting to apply any serious, legitimate, consistent legal principle to the question. You're just trying to manipulate court reasoning to achieve the outcome you want.

Actually, what I think

Enough. What you think is that homosexuality is morally OK, and polygamy and incest aren't. You have no serious argument in support of your position. That's all. You can't make any real claim to be protecting an individual's rights, and you can't make any real claim to trying to protect society, or marriage, or anyone else. You just think gays should be able to do what they want, that's all, even though you don't want to extend your reasoning in support of gay marriage to anyone else.








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: The Genius of Sen. Rick Santorum (R. Pa) [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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Hey guess what? I said it was a prediction on how the Court would handle those cases. How that makes me trying to "maniplulate court reasoning" is beyond me.

Enough. What you think is....

I could give two shits whether you believe me or not.

You have no serious argument in support of your position.

I've made plenty of serious, rational, and factually correct arguments in support of my position in a number of threads. I know you dont like them, but again, I dont really care.

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Re: The Genius of Sen. Rick Santorum (R. Pa) [jhc] [ In reply to ]
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I've made plenty of serious, rational, and factually correct arguments in support of my position in a number of threads.

Maybe, but you've refused to apply them consistently. That's kind of a problem, I think.








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: The Genius of Sen. Rick Santorum (R. Pa) [jhc] [ In reply to ]
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Your reasoning in support of your opinions is fine. It just has nothing whatever to do with the Constitution.

Sorry though, it is pretty tough to argue that polygamy is not innate behavior. That behavior is certainly way more common than homosexuality.

That is the problem with the entire line of reasoning. Your bottom line is that the answer lies in the personal policy preferences of whoever is on the court at the time. It doesn't lie in the Constitution, and it doesn't lie with the people.

We are supposed to listen with keen interest to the latest fatwah from the robed clergy, I mean judges, and fall in line with no thought of criticism.

Small wonder we have so much trouble selecting judges now that we let them make social policy

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