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Spain Approves Gay Marriage
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I'm not posting this trying to get another "should gay marriage be allowed" debate.
I'm posting this as I find it fascinating that one of the most Catholic countries in the world can separate church from the state, just like it's supposed to be. It also seems that Spanish government is paying more attention to the wishes of youth than it is to the wishes of old money.
Fascinating.


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Spain Approves Gay Marriage

Reuters


Thursday, April 21, 2005

MADRID (Reuters) - Spain's parliament gave initial approval to a law legalizing gay marriage on Thursday in a move likely to rekindle conflict with a Catholic Church that has just elected a new conservative pope.

A packed public gallery erupted in cheers and applause as the speaker announced approval of the Socialist government's proposal, making Spain the third European country to legalize gay marriage.

"It's unfair to be a second-class citizen because of love," Socialist legislator Carmen Monton said. "Spain joins the vanguard of those defending full equality for gays and lesbians."

The proposal, part of a raft of liberal social legislation by the government, has outraged Spain's Catholic church and is unlikely to please Pope Benedict XVI, elected on Tuesday.

The Pope, formerly the Vatican's top doctrinal guardian, has said same-sex unions are destroying the concept of marriage and eroding Europe's social identity.

The bill, passed by 183-136, still needs Senate approval and a final reading in the lower house, but it is widely expected to become law.

However, Spain's top judicial authority has said in a non-binding ruling that gay marriage is unconstitutional, which could encourage a legal challenge.

Only the conservative opposition Popular Party and a Christian democrat party from Catalonia opposed the bill.

Popular Party spokesman Eduardo Zaplana said his party favored equal rights and gay unions for homosexuals. "But it's quite another thing that an ancient institution like marriage, that is fundamental for the organization of society, has to be exactly the same (for homosexuals)," he said.

STREET CELEBRATION

Dozens of activists gathered outside congress to celebrate.

"It's an indescribable emotion," Antonio Poveda, an activist for gay rights group Lambda, said. "I'm going to get married for the sake of activism, for love, and for a question of dignity."

Spain's bishops said in a statement after the vote that legalising gay marriage was "damaging to the common good" and threatened social order.

Gaspar Llamazares, leader of the small United Left coalition, said it was a boon for Spain.

"This is ... an important advance in what we might call the laicism of our country," he told Reuters.

The bill gives same-sex unions the same status as heterosexual ones, including inheritance rights, pensions and the adoption of children.

By a crushing margin, the lower house also approved a bill making divorce quicker and easier and allowing divorced parents to share children's custody.

Senior churchmen have criticized Prime Minister Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero's liberal agenda, which also includes easing abortion restrictions and permitting stem cell research, but the moves are popular among young Spaniards, fewer than a fifth of whom are practising Catholics.

Zapatero, who insists relations with the church are good, said on Thursday he would respect Pope Benedict's views.
"If the new pope says something, I'm prepared to respect what he says," he told a news conference.

During the 1939 to 1975 Catholic dictatorship of Francisco Franco divorce, homosexuality and abortion were illegal. But since Franco's death the country has adopted some of the most liberal views in Europe and a survey last year showed 70 percent of the country supported gay marriage.

Former Pope John Paul warned Spanish bishops in January that an increasingly secular-minded Spain was moving toward "restriction of religious freedom and even promoting disdain or ignorance of religion."

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Re: Spain Approves Gay Marriage [haris] [ In reply to ]
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Not for nothing, but who says Church is "supposed to be" completely separated from the State? Certainly socialists believe this, which is why Spain took this action, but who says it's "supposed to be " that way over some other way?

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: Spain Approves Gay Marriage [haris] [ In reply to ]
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I'm posting this as I find it fascinating that one of the most Catholic countries in the world can separate church from the state, just like it's supposed to be.

In the first place, how Catholic is Spain these days? If there anything like the rest of Europe, not very. They've grown radically secular over their in the Old World, in case you haven't noticed. They might be nominally Catholic, but that's about it. Do you have any idea what percentage of young Spaniards consider themselves religious, for example? Fourteen percent. So let's not make out modern Spain to be any stronghold of Catholicism.

In the second place, "just like it's supposed to be"? Now the separation of church and state is an unalterable law of the universe that all nations must adhere to?








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: Spain Approves Gay Marriage [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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Spanish constitution says it's supposed to be so. European Community constitution guarantees secular government and secular gov free of religious influences is one of the conditions of membership.

Before this turns into another bash Catholics thread, I believe that any country that lets any religion (Islam, Christianity, Judaism) have a large part in running is doomed to fail in today's world and cannot be considered free country.
Think of the countries in which religion rules or has a large part in ruling. In which ones are the citizens allowed basic human freedoms and rights?
Last edited by: haris: Apr 22, 05 8:08
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Re: Spain Approves Gay Marriage [haris] [ In reply to ]
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"secular gov free of religious influences is one of the conditions of membership. "

No it's not. The conditions for membership in the E.U. are called the Copenhagen criteria and they don't mention religion even one time:

-Politically, the country must have stable institutions guaranteeing democracy, the rule of law, human rights and the protection of minorities.
-In economic terms, the country must have a functioning market economy and the capacity to handle competitive pressure on the Union's internal market.
-Administratively, the country's infrastructure must include public authorities which are able to implement and enforce Community law

"Spanish constitution says it's supposed to be so"

So that's the way it's "supposed to be" or that's the way it's "supposed to be in Spain?" because your original post made it sound like you think that's the way it's supposed to be everywhere.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: Spain Approves Gay Marriage [haris] [ In reply to ]
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Haris does have a point with the post. I don't know about the EU Constitution, or what is "supposed to be", but at least Spain is going about this the right way. Democracy is deciding.

I wish that concept would spread here. I don't know what the final result will be, but if the process is done legislatively rather than judically, at least it will be a legitimate result.
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Re: Spain Approves Gay Marriage [haris] [ In reply to ]
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"I find it fascinating that one of the most Catholic countries in the world can separate church from the state,"

Also not trying to turn this into another bashing of my former faith, but Spain is just a typical example of how much the world has changed. Even in here in Canada, fifty years ago French Quebec politics were totally dominated by the Catholic church but now the province is argueably the most secular and liberal in the country.

The only parts of the world in which the church still plays a role in politics are in the poorest third world countries. The Phillipines and a few Latin American countries are examples.
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Re: Spain Approves Gay Marriage [cerveloguy] [ In reply to ]
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"So that's the way it's "supposed to be" or that's the way it's "supposed to be in Spain?" because your original post made it sound like you think that's the way it's supposed to be everywhere. "

I'm sorry about the confusion.
Both. That's the way Spain is, and that's the way I think all countries should be run.
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