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Re: Lets change Birans286's name!!! [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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I am not kidding. A priest or a Pope should be an example by his actions. They are not televangelists. It is not about them. They are mortal. They are weak. They will stumble and fail.

Any priest that preached do what I do rather than preach this is what Jesus taught us and you should do as he does would need to be replaced.
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Re: Lets change Birans286's name!!! [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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He won't say the Church is not tolerant of homosexuals because it simply is not true. I have stepped through the logic very clearly. What part don't you get?
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Re: Lets change Birans286's name!!! [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]
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"A priest or a Pope should be an example by his actions"

And how is a gay priest openly acknowledging that he's gay, but still living within the church not being an example by his actions? i'm not suggesting a world tour or anything. Just saying that if the Church was so tolerant of homosexuality, they would attempt to show gays that they can be good Catholics and still be gay, by putting good examples in front of them in the form of clergy.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: Lets change Birans286's name!!! [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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You could have sworn wrong. The priests have to keep their homosexuality secret because of the Church's intolerance, not from the church itself.

So it was some other slowguy who wrote this?

Having to keep who you are secret from the organization of which you are a member, is not an indication of that organizations tolerance.

So now, though, you're saying that the priest can tell the Church about it, but he has to keep it secret from everyone else? I don't know what you think goes on at Mass, commodore. I've never heard a priest get up there and say he's gay, and he struggles with it, but I've never heard a priest get up there and talk about any of his personal struggles in that manner of specificity, either. Like Art keeps saying- they aren't televangelists. It's not an AA meeting, or something like it. I have absolutely no doubt that if an individual went to a gay priest for help dealing with his sexuality, the priest would have no compunctions against using his own experiences to help the person.

The Church thinks homosexuals should change their ways.

Uh, yeah. No kidding. (That is to say, if they're actively engaging in homosexual relationships, the Church thinks they should change their ways.) That doesn't mean the Church is intolerant of homosexuals.

It thinks the very act which defines their existence is evil.

Yikes. The Church doesn't believe that homosexual acts- or any sexual acts- define one's existence. That there is a pretty distorted view of humanity, if you ask me.

Just don't try to pull the wool over anyones eyes.

I am, like, so totally not.








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: Lets change Birans286's name!!! [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]
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"He won't say the Church is not tolerant of homosexuals because it simply is not true. I have stepped through the logic very clearly. What part don't you get?"

I don't get the part where "tolerance" means not allowing them to marry, not allowing them to openly become clergy, calling those in favor of gay marriage perptrators of an "ideology of evil," calling the inclination towards homosexuality itself a "disorder," etc, etc.

It's great that the Church doesn't out and out say that all gays are damned. It's great that they call for priests to try to save them from the trial of soul that homosexuality is. However, that doesn't equate to tolerance.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: Lets change Birans286's name!!! [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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And how is a gay priest openly acknowledging that he's gay

Tell me again how you think something like that should happen. I mean, I'm not getting it. He should take out an ad in the paper and notify the public that he struggles with his sexuality?








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: Lets change Birans286's name!!! [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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The problem is that it personalizes the teachings. It is not about the priest. It is about God.

If the priest holds himself up explicitly as a positive example, it will inevitably backfire because he is flawed. Part of the Church's teachings is that we are all flawed. It is philosophically abhorent to hold oneself up as an example. Such a thing would be the commission of the sin of pride, which I believe is one of the seven deadly sins.

Part of the ordination ceremony is laying prostate, face down in front of the Cardinal. It has a way of getting the message of humility across.

I acknowledge that abiding with the Church's teachings is really difficult for a homosexual. Sorry, but the level of difficulty is way down the list of expectations, which none of us meet. Try living up to love your neighbor as yourself for the love of God. That one makes struggling with homosexuality a walk in the park.

It is not like our flaws are any secret. That is why we have sorrow, repentence, the sacrament of Confession, forgiveness and penance.
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Re: Lets change Birans286's name!!! [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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"I have absolutely no doubt that if an individual went to a gay priest for help dealing with his sexuality, the priest would have no compunctions against using his own experiences to help the person"


Really? I highly doubt that at all. I think the priest would try to talk the person out of being gay.

"So it was some other slowguy who wrote this?

Having to keep who you are secret from the organization of which you are a member, is not an indication of that organizations tolerance."

Let me be a little more clear. It is my impression that Catholic priests who are gay, if they exist which one must assume is the case, are not free to confirm that inclination to the church or anyone else. The fact that the Church may know that there are gay priests in general, or that a few may have recieved guidance in the protection of a confessional booth is not the same thing as being free to discuss your sexuality. Rather than expressing how tolerant the Church is by allowing these men to come forwad and live openly as an example of how a gay person can still live a good Catholic life, the priests are "in the closet" so to speak.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: Lets change Birans286's name!!! [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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"Tell me again how you think something like that should happen. I mean, I'm not getting it. He should take out an ad in the paper and notify the public that he struggles with his sexuality?"

Who said anything about struggling? All I said is that a tolerant Church would have gay priests who are known to be gay and who serve as an example for gays for how to be gay and still be a good Catholic. Instead, the fact that they are gay is kept a secret (although a poor one in some cases).

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: Lets change Birans286's name!!! [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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It's great that they call for priests to try to save them from the trial of soul that homosexuality is. However, that doesn't equate to tolerance.

So what you're saying is that if the Church is intolerant of sin, it just follows necessarily that it's intolerant not only of the sinner, but to anyone who successfully struggles against that sin.

Right. Then I'm a victim, too. The Church has condemned all sorts of behavior I've engaged in, and all sorts of behavior that I'm tempted to. Who can I sue?








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: Lets change Birans286's name!!! [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]
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"Sorry, but the level of difficulty is way down the list of expectations, which none of us meet. Try living up to love your neighbor as yourself for the love of God. That one makes struggling with homosexuality a walk in the park"

Really? So completely never acting on your sexual impulses is a walk in the park huh? At the risk of touching on a nerve here, how's that worked out for the clergy over the years?

"It is not like our flaws are any secret. That is why we have sorrow, repentence, the sacrament of Confession, forgiveness and penance."

Yet without positive examples of gay Catholics, and in the face of rhetoric that is easily intepreted as anit-gay, the Church pushes gays away from the fold, rather than bringing them in.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: Lets change Birans286's name!!! [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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I think the priest would try to talk the person out of being gay.

If you mean the priest would try to talk the person out of committing homosexual acts, of course he would.

Now, though, it's not enough that a gay priest provides guidance to someone else, using his own experience- he's got to validate that person in what the Church says is sinful? I think the expectation is unreasonable.

It is my impression that Catholic priests who are gay, if they exist which one must assume is the case, are not free to confirm that inclination to the church or anyone else.

And like I already said, that impression is just incorrect. But don't let that stop you.

allowing these men to come forwad and live openly as an example of how a gay person can still live a good Catholic life

And I'm still trying to figure out how a celibate priest lives openly as a homosexual.








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: Lets change Birans286's name!!! [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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"Right. Then I'm a victim, too. The Church has condemned all sorts of behavior I've engaged in, and all sorts of behavior that I'm tempted to. Who can I sue?"

Last I checked, you're not being kept from marriage by any of those sins. Last I checked, you haven't been told you have a disorder.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: Lets change Birans286's name!!! [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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Last I checked, you haven't been told you have a disorder.

You should check again. We all have one spiritual disorder or another. Catholic doctrine 101.








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: Lets change Birans286's name!!! [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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I give up. It's been a long day and I'm clearly not going to convince you or Art that the Church might be in error about anything. Suffice it to say that the homosexual population doesn't feel tolerated or welcomed by the Church. Many have expressed concern over the election of Pope Benedict because of his past vies on this subject. The fact that you guys don't have a problem with how gays are treated doesn'tmake the church tolerant of homosexuals or homosexuality.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: Lets change Birans286's name!!! [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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Following the Church's teachings is a really tough process. None of us ever live up. On a good day, we do the best we can. Some of us don't have a lot of good days.

Marriage is a sacrament, instituted by Jesus and exemplified in the marriage at Cannan (sp?). It is between a man and a woman. Clearly the restrictions affect some more than others. I think you were an active part of the polygamy thread a while back, so I won't step through all the unequal burdens the definition of marriage and the demands of fidelity place on Catholics.

Gays can certainly be members of the clergy. Being open about individual sexual orientation, one way or the other is wrong as described above.

I don't know that the Church teaches homosexuality is a disorder. I have never heard such a thing. From a practical basis, it is a serious burden on the gay person in terms of living up the Church's teachings. Your argument that is not fair to that person is based on solid reasoning, but loving Kim Sung Il is a serious hurdle for me. I haven't gotten over that hurdle just yet. Maybe someday.

I suppose it has not been proven scientifically, but it is pretty likely that God made some people homosexual. So what is not to love of one of God's creations?

Lest I commit the sin of Pride, let me be very clear that I don't live up to all the Church's teachings either. I am a rather poor example.
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Re: Lets change Birans286's name!!! [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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"I don't get the part where "tolerance" means not allowing them to marry, not allowing them to openly become clergy, calling those in favor of gay marriage perptrators of an "ideology of evil," calling the inclination towards homosexuality itself a "disorder," etc, etc."

By "tolerance" are you really saying that the Church should condone homosexuality? That is, accept the practice of homosexuality? There are no married priests (exceptions do exist, but not for your point) so gay or straight does not matter. As for the existence of gay priests, guess what? They exist. Both the practicing and non-practicing. How is being "openly" gay, by which I think you mean practicing, "tolerance" when it is expressly forbidden by Church doctrine?

The Church does have a position on the practice of homosexuality. It also has a position on the orientation. The first is wrong, evil. The second is the subject of pastoral care.

"It's great that the Church doesn't out and out say that all gays are damned. It's great that they call for priests to try to save them from the trial of soul that homosexuality is. However, that doesn't equate to tolerance."

Again, it sounds like tolerance equates to acceptance in your model. What is tolerance to you?
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Re: Lets change Birans286's name!!! [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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The fact that you guys don't have a problem with how gays are treated doesn'tmake the church tolerant of homosexuals or homosexuality.

And objecting that the Church condemns some behavior that one wants to engage in doesn't make the Church intolerant of a group of people, either.








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: Lets change Birans286's name!!! [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, compared to loving your neighbor as yourself, not acting on your sexual impulses is a walk in the park.

I would like to think that Mother Teresa lived up to the standard of loving her neighbor, at least most of her life, but maybe not. She will eventually be a saint. I never will.

I acknowledge that the Church's teachings are not designed to attract gays. Some may well leave the Church because of the teachings. Others will violate the teachings, but stay. Jesus teaches a standard that is impossible for any mortal to live up to. Some will be driven away, and all will fail, but the standard will remain.

In reality, if you look at the religions that are rapidly growing, it is mostly the strict, value based religions. The Mormans are the obvious example with which I am familar. They really take the love your neighbor teaching seriously.
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