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Re: An alternate view of Pope John Paul II [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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First of all, I have no position on Pope John Paul II. Really.

So what's your motivation, as an atheist, in posting criticism of him in what's essentially a matter internal to the Catholic Church? Just couldn't stand to hear so many positive statements about a religious leader this week?

Citing Piux X as a canonized saint is funny. As if sainthood is any indication of righteousness.

lol! While I understand that you don't believe in saints, Ken, Catholics do, and if there's a better indication of righteousness than sainthood, I don't know what it is. One would think a good Catholic like Cahill might be a little less quick to characterize a canonized saint as a tyrant.

A quick perusal of the Web shows that Piux X appears to have created a network of informers whose task it was to root out those in the clergy who didn't adhere to his set of guidelines (look up "Lamentabili", which is a list of positions which he utterly rejects).

Take my word for it that I don't have to google St. Pius X- I'm already familiar with the Syllabus of Errors. I only wish more Catholics were.

Anyway, what's your problem with that? He took steps to keep Catholic clergy from spreading what the Church considers heresy? Oh, horror! That was his job, Ken.

He apparently couldn't deal with the fact that the scientific method was better able to answer questions about the real world than was the Catholic Church

No, Ken, he "apparently" didn't believe that science can provide us with any religious truth, and he was right about that.


What's my motivation? Balance.

So do you believe Pius XII should be canonized? John Paul II believed it. By your definition, he was as righteous as can be. Furthermore, any saint can't be criticised because, well, he/she's a saint.

Even John Paul II had reconciled science and religion (to some degree). Pius X dismissed all science that contradicted the inerrant Word of God expressed in Scripture.

(Nit: isn't "canonized saint" redundant?)

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"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: An alternate view of Pope John Paul II [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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So a "bad pope" in the 20th Century should be canonized?

First of all, if you're talking about Pope Pius XII, he hasn't been canonized yet. He might not ever be canonized.

Second of all, it's by no means universally agreed that he was a "bad pope." Those hostile to the Catholic Church have made a lot of noise about his supposed complicity in the Holocaust, but their's isn't the only side of the story.








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: An alternate view of Pope John Paul II [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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The canonization process has gotten completely out of control under Pope John Paul II. I think we have more new saints under his watch than in the previous 2000 years. Too much grade inflation for my tastes.

Sorry, I can't answer about particular popes from before my lifetime since I am just uninformed. One of the best things John Paul II did was fess up to some of the errors of the Church in recent history. The Catholic Church didn't cover itself with glory during WWII or the Civil Rights Era.
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Re: An alternate view of Pope John Paul II [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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What's my motivation? Balance.

Why? Why does it matter to you?

So do you believe Pius XII should be canonized?

I don't know. Last I checked, it isn't up for a vote, and I'm not on the Congregation for the Causes of Saints, so it isn't really a matter suitable for my own opinion right now. And in any event, it isn't a question of whether or not he "should" be canonized, so much, as it is a matter of whether or not he's in Heaven, and the Church declares so. It's not a political position.

John Paul II believed it. By your definition, he was as righteous as can be.

No, by my definition we'll only have confirmation of that if or when he's canonized.

Furthermore, any saint can't be criticised because, well, he/she's a saint.

Didn't say that, I don't think. I only suggested that someone with a real insight into the Church and who's operating in good faith might hesitate before excoriating a saint like Cahill did.

Even John Paul II had reconciled science and religion

There's no reconciliation necessary. And John Paul II didn't change any Catholic doctrine to accomodate "science," which is the act that St. Pius X condemned.

(Nit: isn't "canonized saint" redundant?) No.








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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