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Foreign Intervention to save Murderers?
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WASHINGTON, D.C. - The Supreme Court said Monday that it might put off a decision on whether 51 Mexican nationals on death rows in the United States are entitled to reopen their cases as the result of a ruling in their favor by the International Court of Justice in the Netherlands.

Instead, the justices said Texas courts should take up the matter first to address an unusual order by President Bush. One month ago, he declared that the state courts must consider whether to give the defendants a new trial or new sentencing hearing, saying the United States had a duty to "discharge its international obligations" by complying with a clear ruling of the international court.

In the Vienna Convention of 1963, U.S. officials agreed that they must be informed when Americans are arrested abroad. The same principle applies to foreign nationals arrested and held in the United States.

Two years ago, Mexico sued the United States because it had not been informed when its citizens were arrested, tried and sentenced to death. The suit was brought on behalf of 51 Mexicans who were on death row in nine states. The international court, also known as the World Court, ruled for Mexico and said U.S. officials must "review and reconsider" the convictions and sentences.

Until Bush's order, it was unclear how, or whether, the United States would abide by the order. No one had anticipated that Bush would put himself in conflict with Texas officials in a challenge to the validity of more than a dozen death sentences in that state.

His order also threw a wrench into the pending proceedings before the Supreme Court in the case of Jose Medellin, who is challenging his 1994 conviction and death sentence from a Texas court.

The justices had already agreed to decide in this case whether the World Court's ruling gave the Mexican national a right to reopen his case in federal court. But when that issue came up for argument Monday, several justices said it might make more sense to send the dispute back to Texas.

I guessed I missed the piece of legislation assigning rights on US soil to to the UN...er Hague.

Hey Mexico, fix you own freaking problems with corruption, drugs, poverty etc etc. I wonder how many of those people on death row are convicted drug smugglers/murderers? I am sure there is $$$ money involved for someone in the Fox government too.

"The great pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do."
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Re: Foreign Intervention to save Murderers? [jkca1] [ In reply to ]
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"In the Vienna Convention of 1963, U.S. officials agreed that they must be informed when Americans are arrested abroad. The same principle applies to foreign nationals arrested and held in the United States."

So, you are blaming Mexico and La Hague for the fact that the US failed to comply with their obligations?
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Re: Foreign Intervention to save Murderers? [Trirunner] [ In reply to ]
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I suspect that were the shoe on the other foot i.e. an american being sentanced to death in a country without extradition people would be screaming blue murder.........
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Re: Foreign Intervention to save Murderers? [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
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Never heard of blue murder, but this situation reminds me of the American kid that was caught vandalizing in the philipines and was going to get caned. What a huge uproar that caused here in the states and it was only a caning and not a death sentance.
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Re: Foreign Intervention to save Murderers? [jkca1] [ In reply to ]
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I wonder if these pieces of shit are illegally in our country. I also wonder if that makes a difference in the 1963 ruling.


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Re: Foreign Intervention to save Murderers? [brucewayne] [ In reply to ]
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only to the extent that in the UK or the US if convicted of a crime where the sentence was not death and you are a citizen of another country you would serve your time in the US or UK and then be deported back to your point of origin. In the case of a death sentence, deportation is not really an issue if you serve your sentence :)
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Re: Foreign Intervention to save Murderers? [Tyrius] [ In reply to ]
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how about an American kid gets caught stealing in Saudi (do they still amputate in Saudi?) and is sentenced? does anyone have a problem in theory with an American citizen having their hand chopped off by another country for stealing?
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Re: Foreign Intervention to save Murderers? [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
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Nope, the little shit shouldn't have been stealing. I think we should use that punishment here. Just think, if cut off the peckers of convicted child molesters, recidivisum (sp?) would be way down.


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Re: Foreign Intervention to save Murderers? [Tyrius] [ In reply to ]
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The kid got caught in Singapore. And was caned by a Judo Master, I was in the Navy at the time so it was a big deal since we had to delay a port visit to Singapore. I think he deserved what he got, I also think that the government should have informed the Mexican Embassy in accordance with our obligations more to protect US citizen in foreign countries than to protect foreign citizens here.
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Re: Foreign Intervention to save Murderers? [Trirunner] [ In reply to ]
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The Optional Protocol to the Vienna Convention on Consular Rights requires signatories to give the International Court of Justice (ICJ), the United Nations judicial body also known as the World Court, jurisdiction over cases where individuals claim they have been illegally denied the right to see a diplomat when they are arrested abroad. The US proposed the protocol in 1963 and ratified it, along with the Vienna Convention, in 1969.

US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice informed UN Secretary General Kofi Annan in a two-paragraph letter dated March 7 that the US “hereby withdraws” from the protocol. So while still remaining a signer to the Vienna Convention, the US will now refuse to submit to international law to enforce it. From this point forward the Bush administration’s response to arrested foreign nationals denied their consular rights—and who seek remedy at the ICJ—will quite simply be: “Tough luck.”

So we did mess up but now we are rectifying the situation...

"The great pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do."
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Re: Foreign Intervention to save Murderers? [jkca1] [ In reply to ]
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I think you are completely missing the point in most of these cases. The accused was not denied the right to speak to his consular contacts. The accused has typically not availed himself of that right.

He could have done this because he and his attorney were stupid. He could have done this because the consular contacts would not have been able to help anyway. More importantly, he could have done it because he and his attorney were really smart in that they saw an opportunity to sleep on one of their rights for years and, if the decision went against them, they would have an excuse to get some court to start all over again.

You can't sit back for years, not exercise a right, then when it doesn't work out complain that life is unfair and demand a second bite of the apple. At least I can't. That never worked for me in any case.

I have a hard time sympathizing with people who claim they were unfairly treated unless part of the argument is that they are innocent. I haven't heard that in any of these cases. They had due process. They are guilty. They were found guilty. Game over.
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Re: Foreign Intervention to save Murderers? [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]
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Actually I think we both agree for a change;

They had due process. They are guilty. They were found guilty. Game over.


See what becoming a neo_ _ _ has done for you. ;)

"The great pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do."
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Re: Foreign Intervention to save Murderers? [jkca1] [ In reply to ]
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It will be our secret.
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Re: Foreign Intervention to save Murderers? [jkca1] [ In reply to ]
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I am not a lawyer, I have limited understanding of the issues at hand and I was going by the information on your post. The way I look at it is that either they had obligation to notify the foreign authorities or they did not.

If they did and failed to do so, then shame on them for:

- violating the rights of the individual.

- giving ground to have a conviction overturned on a technicality.

If they did not then, I agree, tough luck.

It should not be difficult to determine whether they had the notification obligation at the time of the events.

Is my view too simplistic?
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