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Gov. Bush: disingenuous or misinformed?
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From an article in the NYTimes, regarding the "renowned" neurologist who claimed that Terry Schiavo may be in a minimally conscious state:

Yesterday, in an affidavit supporting a petition by the Florida Department of Children and Families in the case, Dr. Cheshire said it was more likely that Ms. Schiavo was in a "minimally conscious state."

"Although Terri did not demonstrate during our 90-minute visit compelling evidence of verbalization, conscious awareness or volitional behavior," he wrote, "yet the visitor has the distinct sense of the presence of a living human being who seems at some level to be aware of some things around her."

Mr. Bush called Dr. Cheshire a "renowned neurologist," but he is not widely known in the neurology or bioethics fields. Asked about him, Dr. Arthur Caplan, director of the Center for Bioethics at the University of Pennsylvania, replied, "Who?"

Dr. Cheshire, who graduated from Princeton and earned a medical degree at West Virginia University, did not return calls to the Mayo Clinic seeking comment. The clinic said in a statement that his work on the Schiavo case was not related to his work at the clinic and that the state had invited his opinion. "He observed the patient at her bedside and conducted an extensive review of her medical history but did not conduct an examination," the statement said.

Dr. Caplan said that was not good enough. "There is just no excuse for going in and making any pronouncement about the state that Terri Schiavo is in unless you're going to go in and do some form of technologically mediated scanning that would overturn what's on the record already," he said.

Dr. Ronald Cranford, a neurologist and medical ethicist at the University of Minnesota Medical School who has examined Ms. Schiavo on behalf of the Florida courts and declared her to be irredeemably brain-damaged, said, "I have no idea who this Cheshire is," and added: "He has to be bogus, a pro-life fanatic. You'll not find any credible neurologist or neurosurgeon to get involved at this point and say she's not vegetative."

He said there was no doubt that Ms. Schiavo was in a persistent vegetative state. "Her CAT scan shows massive shrinkage of the brain," he said. "Her EEG is flat - flat. There's no electrical activity coming from her brain."

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"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: Gov. Bush: disingenuous or misinformed? [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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You forgot option 3.



Just plain dumb.

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"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill
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Re: Gov. Bush: disingenuous or misinformed? [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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Dr. Cheshire, who graduated from Princeton

Embarassing.

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Re: Gov. Bush: disingenuous or misinformed? [jhc] [ In reply to ]
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and earned a medical degree at West Virginia University



evidently fond of the Gentleman's C while at Princeton. Me thinks WVU isn't exactly the Ivies of Med Schools.

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"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." John Rogers
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Re: Gov. Bush: disingenuous or misinformed? [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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He is neither. He is just trying to play his hand as best he can so as to save her life. He is just flat out of decent cards to play. He played his best cards already. The ones he has left are pretty weak, but he has nothing to lose by playing them.

Why do so many people ascribe such terrible motives to the people in this tragedy? With few exceptions, everybody just seems to be trying to do what is right.

Even the vote in Congress appeared to me to have more Members voting their principals than any vote I can remember in recent memory. Name another such recent vote if you disagree.
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Re: Gov. Bush: disingenuous or misinformed? [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]
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Name another such recent vote if you disagree.

Campaign finance "reform." The principle being that they all want to save their cushy jobs.

But that's probably not what you meant, right? ;)








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: Gov. Bush: disingenuous or misinformed? [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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No, that is not what I meant.

I think most people who voted for that figured the Supreme Court might read the part of the Constitution that said "Congress shall make no law" and decide that Congress couldn't make a law.

You need to understand that "Congress shall make no law" actually means Congress can make a law if we happen to like it according to five men in black pajamas. They are obviously far more astute than I.
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Re: Gov. Bush: disingenuous or misinformed? [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]
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"but he has nothing to lose by playing them. "

Except his credibility.

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"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: Gov. Bush: disingenuous or misinformed? [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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d: political putz


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What a drag it is getting old. -- Stones
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Re: Gov. Bush: disingenuous or misinformed? [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
Why do so many people ascribe such terrible motives to the people in this tragedy? With few exceptions, everybody just seems to be trying to do what is right.


i ascribe no terrible motives to the rightful parties in this case. namely the schindlers and schiavo. i fully understand why both sides are taking the position they are taking.

congress, on the other hand, is attempting to make political hay in the worst fashion(and based on polling, i am far from the minority opinion on this one). there are plenty of people in similar positions as terri schiavo. where is the national concern for them? this has been an 8 year ordeal--why involve themselves at the 11th hour? at the very least, it started gaining more notoriety a couple years back, where was the wringing of the hands then? where was bush's "err on the side of life" mantra when he signed the advance directives act in texas in '99? where was congress for the 6 month old in houston that was removed from life support over the mom's wishes?

the show made of bush coming back from crawford was over the top as well(hell, he didn't even cut his vacay short after the tsunami hit). frist diagnosing mrs. schiavo on the senate floor based on some video tapes--again surreal and smacking of grandstanding. and what about delay's speech to the religious group? he discussed how god brought terri schiavo to expose what's happening in america and tied the "attacks" against him into the whole situation. ridiculous. total and complete political opportunism.

as for it being a vote of conscious, actually i see it more as a vote of cowardice. i do not believe that many reps and senators supported the bill or congressional involvement in the issue. however, because it is an emotionally charged ordeal, many were afraid to vote how they really felt to avoid being demonized as uncaring or insensitive. in addition, looking at polling on the issue, it really looks like the repubs misjudged public reaction to this(or polls are indicating that social conservatives hold an inordinate amount of sway over gop leaders). i think the dems might be giving the repubs enough rope to hang themselves on this issue, so they voted the measure through rather than draw attention to themselves by creating opposition. again cowardly, but shrewd as well.




f/k/a mclamb6
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Re: Gov. Bush: disingenuous or misinformed? [mclamb6] [ In reply to ]
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Do you ever have a day in which you wake up and decide to think the best of people rather than the worst?
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Re: Gov. Bush: disingenuous or misinformed? [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]
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like i said, i have no truck whatsoever with either the schindlers or mr. schiavo. had congress taken up the issue on a somewhat quiet basis, passed a law, and left it that, their motives would be much purer. misplaced, but purer. all the ridiculous speeches and grandstanding, though, have made this extremely dirty.

let's put it this way. i don't know if those talking points are fake or real, but the repubs words/actions on the issue are very consistent with the content of the memo.




f/k/a mclamb6
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Re: Gov. Bush: disingenuous or misinformed? [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:

Even the vote in Congress appeared to me to have more Members voting their principals than any vote I can remember in recent memory. Name another such recent vote if you disagree.


If by principals you mean hijacking rights that are clearly reserved for the states then I agree with you.

These are the same principals that caused the steroids hearings. Empty gestures meant to appeal to the voters but that have no real impact on the lives of americans.

If congress had principles they would be proposing solutions to social security and medicare. Actually putting forth ideas and solutions that may piss people off and cost them(congress) their jobs but move the country forward. Principals are not doing whatever you have to do to be reelected.
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Re: Gov. Bush: disingenuous or misinformed? [Barrio] [ In reply to ]
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I don't agree with the legislation either, but I really think most of the Congressmen voted what they believed in regard to the legislation. Some of them said that this was the toughest vote they ever cast.

Man you guys are cynical. Can't you look for the positive once in a while?

There are solutions on the table for SS at least. Some of our representatives are trying to do the right thing. Maybe they will even succeed.

It is easy to be cynical. I was cynical about welfare reform years ago. Congress passed it three times and Clinton finally gave in and signed it. The program has been a big success.

The cynics never get anything done.
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Re: Gov. Bush: disingenuous or misinformed? [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]
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Cynical, maybe.

Disillusioned, definitely.

I am planning on starting a family in the next 2 years and I am absolutely ashamed of my governement(both sides of the aisle, but especially the republicans) in the last few months. I suppose I shouldn't be surprised but everyone is just interested in getting re-elected. No real governance is occurring.

I am an economist and everything I do is a cost-benefit analysis. Our government is costing us more than it is benefiting us. Whether it is social security, campaign finance reform or education. No one seems able to take a stand on issues that deeply affect the lives of the majority of americans.

I wish I could see a light at the end of the tunnel but I'm afraid that all I see is a train coming at me through the tunnel.
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Re: Gov. Bush: disingenuous or misinformed? [Barrio] [ In reply to ]
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Unfortunately, it seems that more and more, the goal of politicians is to beat the other side, rather than to do the American people any good. I remember when I was a kid, parents used to tell us that we could grow up to be anything we wanted, even President. Now, I don't know that I would use that example for my kids if I ever have any.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: Gov. Bush: disingenuous or misinformed? [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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Have to agree with you there about beating the other side appearing to be priority #1 (not that you care).

But I'd like to add as a close 2nd the priority of doing what constituents think is best in order to get votes, instead of doing what is actually best despite what polls may say. Congressmen are supposed to do what is best, not what is most popular.
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Re: Gov. Bush: disingenuous or misinformed? [Barrio] [ In reply to ]
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Barrio, Slowguy and Tridot, you guys are really tough. Here you live in the greatest place on Earth at the greatest time in human history with the finest people ever to walk the planet, and all you guys do is whine about how it isn't good enough.

I really hope you have a more positive attitude on race day. Why do you always let the perfect be the enemy of the good?

I am not giving up. There is hope for all of you.
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Re: Gov. Bush: disingenuous or misinformed? [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]
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"Here you live in the greatest place on Earth at the greatest time in human history with the finest people ever to walk the planet, and all you guys do is whine about how it isn't good enough"

Really? better than the Pax Romana? Better than the Renaissance? How do you judge something like that? And we're whining? I don't think so. We're just stating the obvious. Both sides of our political system are hell-bent on defeating eachother, and less focused on governance.

"Why do you always let the perfect be the enemy of the good"

Whay are you satisfied with half assed polititcians just because it's better here than some other places? Why do people routinely defend bad bahaviour in our Congress and Executive, and judicial, etc, by saying, "Well you should see how it is in _______ (insert random poor country)."
Just because it sucks smewhere else doesn't mean we should continue to try to improve things here.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: Gov. Bush: disingenuous or misinformed? [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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You are one tough sell, slowguy, but I am going to make an optimist out of you one day. It will take a little doing, but I am not giving up.
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Re: Gov. Bush: disingenuous or misinformed? [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]
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Who says I'm not an optimist? All I'm saying is that things should be improved. I think things can be improved, but it will take some doing. If you're happy with things the way they are, that's your prerogative, but I'd prefer to see America continue to strive for better things rather than settle.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: Gov. Bush: disingenuous or misinformed? [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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We have common ground there.
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Re: Gov. Bush: disingenuous or misinformed? [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]
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That is the first,and probably only, time that slowguy and I will be categorized together.

FYI, in my past life i worked for a non-profit org. that helped senior citizens maintain their dignity and independence by helping them stay in their homes. A very non-cynical position.

I believe that congess has the ability, nee the responsibility, to make peoples lives better. The last month, speciificaly, it is my opinion that they have not done thier job. The only reason they have done nothing else for Schiavo is that public opinion is overwheming against congress intervening. This makes me even more cynical because if they truly believed that saving Schiavo is the right thing to do, they would, but now since it may hurt their chances to be re-elected they will not "do the right thing."

Proud to be a cynic(when it comes to our government.)
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Re: Gov. Bush: disingenuous or misinformed? [Barrio] [ In reply to ]
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You could look at it that way. You could also look at as concluding that the majority in Congress that wants to keep her alive falls away as it becomes clear that the only way to do it is fraught with too many other problems.

They could simply take jurisdiction away from the state courts altogether. That would spark a Constitutional crises since Congress hasn't thrown its weight around with its power to reshuffle courts since the old threats to pack the Supreme Court in FDR days.

They could also change all the rules for end of life procedures. Not many are in favor of that substantively. Procedurally, the idea of making such things federal rather than state issues is hard to imagine as well.

I think in Congress they pretty much did the best they could do. You don't get anywhere in Congress unless you can get the votes.

I am not giving up on you either.
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Re: Gov. Bush: disingenuous or misinformed? [Barrio] [ In reply to ]
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I'm not sure that we are in the same category. I don't think Congress was legally capable of doing any more than they did.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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