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Time to really make heads spin (Shiavo of course)
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So hearing about the idiots who tried to march into the hospice carrying cups of water to "save Terri" got me thinking: what about the flip side? What if someone went in & put a bullet in her brain, ending it once & for all (assuming the Supremes don't have their heads too far up their asses & reverse every court decision under them); would that be akin to murder? She is already condemned--she is basically dead, so why not speed the process along by a few days? Ok, lets assume it wasn't a bullet but a shot of whatever they administer when they implement the death penalty--certainly isn't cruel & unusual there correct? Would a court convict?

While certainly a morbid argument, the fun factor from the media's over-reaction (now that Blake & Peterson are done, what are they going to focus on??) to the euthenasia & the accompanying trial + the social/political fallout would certainly make for entertaining viewing.

Isn't it time another celebrity did something stupid so we can move onto the important issues?

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"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." John Rogers
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Re: Time to really make heads spin (Shiavo of course) [mopdahl] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, legally, that's murder.


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Steve Perkins
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Re: Time to really make heads spin (Shiavo of course) [steveperx] [ In reply to ]
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How can that be murder?
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Re: Time to really make heads spin (Shiavo of course) [steveperx] [ In reply to ]
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Unless congress manages to redefine the definition of ex post facto law... and, hmmm.... lets say they design a law specifically to that individual that ended the life of a specific person for a particular purpose.... or, perhaps force the courts to evaluate certain constitutional concepts until they find an answer that a legislative group decides is constitutional and an executive branch finds acceptable... damn the constitution... full speed ahead. :-)

Sound impossible or improbable... nope... see Shiavo case.

Joe Moya
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Re: Time to really make heads spin (Shiavo of course) [mopdahl] [ In reply to ]
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I am just waiting for the moron to make his/her way into the building at gun point and pour water down Terry's throat. Of course she has no ability to swallow so she will inhale the water and drowned. But hey they tried right!

We had a kid go into a school and kill 10 people but that gets 1/10th the coverage Terry is getting. Everyone want to know what is wrong with kid's these days? We are so wrapped up in our selfish lives we just let them roam.

customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.
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Re: Time to really make heads spin (Shiavo of course) [mopdahl] [ In reply to ]
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monty brought up an interesting scenario which, of course, would never happen, but just the same it has a sort of pleasingly ironic ring to it.

wouldn't it be just great if, all of a sudden, she woke up, and said, "damn i'm hungry!"? and for 15 years all it would've taken to jolt her from her slumber was to be taken off the feeding tube.

meanwhile, it appears that the only thing that will cause the state to actually give you the medical care you need is for you to not be in any way sentient. if you know what's going on around you—you're sick with aids because your boyfriend lied to you about his condition, or you need chemotherapy, or a transplant, or dialysis—well, in this case you're shit out of luck because you should've known better, i guess. we value life, but only that which is not self-aware.

also, meanwhile, are the texas republicans saying, "we need to keep these sorts of people alive for the one in a thousand chance they might come out of it. that's how much we revere life." yet, for the one in fifty chance a person in texas is wrongly convicted of a capital crime, bummer but, heck, they probably deserved it for something else they did.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Time to really make heads spin (Shiavo of course) [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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did you happen to see the jon stewart "story" on schiavo from the "daily show" a couple days back? funny stuff that raises a couple of the points you touch on. crooksandliars.com has it on video if you are interested.




f/k/a mclamb6
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Re: Time to really make heads spin (Shiavo of course) [Monk] [ In reply to ]
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The question was:

"What if someone went in & put a bullet in her brain, ending it once & for all... would that be akin to murder? Ok, lets assume it wasn't a bullet but a shot of whatever they administer when they implement the death penalty--certainly isn't cruel & unusual there correct? Would a court convict?"

This is like the classic law school question:

A guy jumps off a building intending to end his life. As he passes a window, a person inside shoots at another person inside, missing, but going through a window, striking the falling man and killing him instantly. Is the shooter guilty of murder?

The answer is technically, yes. The criminal law doesn't differentiate between the intentional killing of people who want to die and the intentional killing of people who don't want to die. The fact is, the shooter had the requisite mens rea (intent to kill). The fact that he killed the wrong person... who happened to be trying to end his own life makes no difference.

In the Schiavo scenario, "speeding up her death" with a gun or lethal injection is legally murder because it is an intervening cause of death and because it isn't authorized under the law.

EDIT

Whether a court (actually, a jury) would convict is another story.


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Steve Perkins
Last edited by: steveperx: Mar 24, 05 8:01
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Re: Time to really make heads spin (Shiavo of course) [steveperx] [ In reply to ]
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Wouldn't that be manslaughter as he wasn't "intending" to kill the person who was falling?
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Re: Time to really make heads spin (Shiavo of course) [Tyrius] [ In reply to ]
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It depends on how the particular state defines "murder" or "manslaughter," but I think if he was intending to kill the other person in the room and killed the falling man instead, his intent is imputed to the falling man. There's another old law school saying... "intent follows the bullet."


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Steve Perkins
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Re: Time to really make heads spin (Shiavo of course) [steveperx] [ In reply to ]
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I think any killing that results from the commission of a felony, as the original shooting would surely be, is usually considered murder, instead of manslaughter.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: Time to really make heads spin (Shiavo of course) [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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A very good point.


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Steve Perkins
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Re: Time to really make heads spin (Shiavo of course) [steveperx] [ In reply to ]
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Unless of course the victim ends up on life support and hangs on for a year and a day.

(lawschool is slowly coming back to me)

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"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill
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Re: Time to really make heads spin (Shiavo of course) [MattinSF] [ In reply to ]
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Unless of course the victim ends up on life support and hangs on for a year and a day.

Isn't that a kicker? Here's a question I've never heard answered- in such a case, is it still possible to charge the killer with some other crime, even if it's lesser than murder? Felony battery, or something?








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: Time to really make heads spin (Shiavo of course) [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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Depending on where the charges are filed the perp will most probably face some form of lesser charge. What usually happens in such cases is that the perp has already been tried for some form of assault which is them bumped to manslaughter when the victim eventually dies.

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"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill
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Re: Time to really make heads spin (Shiavo of course) [MattinSF] [ In reply to ]
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bumped to manslaughter when the victim eventually dies

So the "year and a day" thing only applies to murder, not to manslaughter? That's interesting, I didn't know that.








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: Time to really make heads spin (Shiavo of course) [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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pretty sure the "year and a day" thing was only at common law and that now some states have codified the issue such that "year and a day" is not the standard any longer.




f/k/a mclamb6
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Re: Time to really make heads spin (Shiavo of course) [mclamb6] [ In reply to ]
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It's still the law in Idaho. Or at least it was a couple of years ago when I went through the POST academy. I remember trying to figure out if there was some slow acting poison I could get my hands on . . . ;)








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: Time to really make heads spin (Shiavo of course) [Monk] [ In reply to ]
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Just ask Dr. Kevorkian


Dan Hollingsworth

Nobody grows old by merely living a number of years. People grow old only by deserting their ideals. Years may wrinkle the skin, but to give up interest wrinkles the soul." - Douglas MacArthur
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