What lesson does a child learn when we say "don't hit", but turn around and hit them?

It teaches the lesson that children and their parents are not equals, and don't interact as such, I guess.

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

"never hit another person, except in self-defense"

Are there no other exceptions? Boxing? Patting on the but in Footbal? Headbuts amongst teamates?

I think asking a child to discern between a "punishment" hitting and "hitting out of anger" or dislike is not much to ask.

I do however agree that the potential for this confusion to occur is great, especially considering your average "corporal punisher" does so out of anger. In this case it would certainly confuse the child.

However the "don't hit" argument doesn't wash unless you plan on teaching your child to never have physical contact of any type. No football, soccor, boxing etc.

~Matt

Are there no other exceptions? Boxing? Patting on the but in Footbal? Headbuts amongst teamates? Pain compliance techniques by cops? Etc and so on.

I do however agree that the potential for this confusion to occur is great, especially considering your average "corporal punisher" does so out of anger.

The potential for abuse certainly exists, but I think you overstate the tendency of parents to take it that far. Who says the "average corporal punisher" does it out of anger? For that matter, who says anger is necessarily a bad thing in this context?

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Wow. Your post was like I wrote it about myself. Your experiences were/are eerily similar to mine. I am in the same place with my own kids too. I have not spanked either of my kids in years and but did when they were younger. They both are turning out to be pretty good kids too. I think there were times that a spanking (hand only and across the rear end) was appropriate and even though now its praise/rewards. Agree too that no kid ever needs the shit kicked out of them. A hug, words of encouragement, and known boundaries work well with most kids.

"but I think you overstate the tendency of parents"

Yes maybe "Average" was a bit to far. However I think that part of the reason we have this "pendulum swing" to "don't touch you're kids, or even correct them harshly" is due to the history of serious child abuse.

I think that many, I'd even say possible most, parents that spank do so while angry. This, in some cases, possible more than we'd like to admit, leads to too much and to harsh of a punishement.

Is "Anger" in this context a bad thing? I don't know. I have the tendency to believe that it is. I prefer to look at a spanking as the carrying out of a "judicial sentencing" rather than a "reaction". Carrying out a sentence is not often done out of anger a reaction often is.

I also believe that spanking while not angry seriously lowers the incidence of "abuse".

"Are there no other exceptions? Boxing? Patting on the but in Footbal? Headbuts amongst teamates? Pain compliance techniques by cops? Etc and so on. "

I was going to add "sexual deviance"...but I thought that was going a bit far.

~Matt

I think that part of the reason we have this "pendulum swing" to "don't touch you're kids, or even correct them harshly" is due to the history of serious child abuse.

I think it's due to a bunch of touchy-feely types who don't know what the heck they're talking about, myself. The history of serious child abuse? Serious child abuse, thank God, has always been the exception.

Is "Anger" in this context a bad thing? I don't know.

Well, I can't say that I've often smacked my kids when I wasn't angry about something. Does that mean I beat them senseless because I was in a blind rage? Of course not. Have a little faith in a parent's ability to control themself- most have it. (As a side note, I want my kid to think I'm angry when I hit them. It's part of the punishment.)

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Spankers, what do you feel is spanking worthy?
Examples from your own life please...

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http://www.optruth.org/

"I think it's due to a bunch of touchy-feely types who don't know what the heck they're talking about, myself."

I think it comes from some of the people that deal with the true abuse on a daily basis. Which by the way may actually be the exception, much better than was 20-30 years ago, but still bad enough to turn ones stomache.

As with many things these individuals tried to institute policy that woudl protect the children in the environments that they needed the most protection. As is often the case this spilled out into general populous, where as you stated, your average parent has some semblence of control.

Child abuse used to be far more prevelant and to a point socially accepted even promoted. I have an uncle that is deaf in one ear from being smacked in the head and my mother has more than one scar from steel scales(AKA rulers) being ran down her spine for "improper posture". This was not done at home but at school, without consequence.

"Have a little faith in a parent's ability to control themself- most have it."

For the most part I think most parent have control. Others don't.

"(As a side note, I want my kid to think I'm angry when I hit them. It's part of the punishment.) "

Which is fine with me as long as you don't lose it and beat the hell out of your kids. I personally prefer not to be angry...then again I've never spanked my kids....yet.

~Matt

Spanking?
The only time my daughter caught a spanking was when she ran in trafficewhen she was 2 1/2. I smacked her butt due to a combination of terror (it scared the heck out of me) and anger (which was really terror masking itself as a different emotion). She never ran in traffic again. I've never consistently spanked my children. But I will admit it to the very rare paddle on the bottom due to consistent ignoring of me.

I work with kids. A lot of them and find some consistent traits amongst the very best (and very worst) in relation to their behavior. Before I state them let me say that I don't believe in 'good' or 'bad' kids. Very often the 'good' kids will commit heinous activities (Glen Ridge, NJ - gang rape of a retarded girl by football players - 1989) and the 'bad' kids will often excel in specific areas (ever take a 'bad' kid to deliver Christmas presents to poor kids - absolutely amazing).

The traits that well-behaved children share are:
Firm, fair and consistent behavior expectations at home
Treatment based on dignity and communication
Access to and strong relations with trusted adults
Schools that appropriately challenge their abilities and appropriate celebrate their accomplishments.
Parents that recognize that schools are partners, not servants or lackeys

The traits that poorly behaved children share:
Inconsistent communication with parents
Parent interaction that is spotty at best and neglectful at worst
Mobility - moving from school to school (not always - but often)
Parents that can't or won't recognize schools as partners
Schools that degrade or hurt them through lack of respect and/or neglect.

The bottom line is that children mirror and mimic the adults they are around. Eventually they will become their parents...this can be a good thing or this can be a bad thing. If the parent is poor, the child may be able to change behavior patterns with proper adult intervention.

my two cents,

B.

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I can think of many things my brother and I did that we got beat for with reason: #1 - laying in our room at night yelling and cussing at each other while the 6 others in the house tried to sleep - we'd finally hear dad coming down the hall and we'd bury ourselves under the covers while he proceeded to beat us with fists, belts, yardsticks, hangers, shoes, whatever he could get his hands on, etc. - we never were hurt bad and it sure made us shut up. #2 - lying to our parents about our whereabouts when we were 11&12yo and hanging out at the bowling alley in a bad part of town with girls who liked to "experiment" a lot more than the girls at our school - we didn't get a "you disappoint me" speech, we got chased around with a belt. #3 - dumping dogshit in our neighbors mail slot. #4 - breaking a dumpster full of flourescent bulbs out behind the K-mart (man, that was fun). #5 - throwing buckeyes at passing cars. #6 ... There are many more instances of bad behavior where our dad relied on corporal punishment rather than reason. That said, I think he had it worse growing up in a family of 13.

Two points about that. #1 - We never were close to dad and still are not to this day. I think the strict disciplinarian side of him made us write him off as someone we could trust or communicate with. #2 - I still can't help but think that the disciplined, hard work approach we saw him take in life didn't somehow help us stay out of too much trouble, get through hs/college and out on our own quickly.

With my own young'uns, I try to be a lot closer to them mentally, physically and spiritually than my parents ever were with us. Lot's of open communication, hugs and kisses. I spent more time with my son at his championship swim meet this weekend than my father ever did combined through all my athletic career. My 15yo daughter talks to me openly on an adult level and I show her a lot of trust and respect - she's on a very loose rope, but she knows there's a noose at the end of it.

That said, I agree with the others who say each child's needs are different. For example, my daughter drew on the wall with a crayon when she was 3 or 4, I sat her down and lectured her while I washed the wall, she cried and never dreamed of doing it again. Same thing happened with my son around that age, lectured him while I cleaned it, no crying - he just went into another room and did the same damn thing! (I believe he got smacked on the behind for that.) I'll never take it to the level my father did, but I can't say I will avoid corporal punishment altogether.

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kangaroo -- please do not read or respond to any of my posts

We have two children, ages 2 1/2 and 9 months. We are also the primary care-takers of a nephew, age 13 and niece, age 10.

We do not spank, or use any form of physical punishment - as a rule. Both my wife and I have, on a few occasions, had cause to "grab" or "yank" the two older children.

We agreed, at the onset, to refrain at all costs from using coroporal punishment. I must admit though, that this was entirely at the discretion of my wife - who is now a clinical psychologist. Data out there says that it just isn't as effective as other methods, when they are used correctly. Now I'm just paraphrasing what I've heard her say a million times (each time I've wanted to beat the brains out of the 13 year old!) - I have not done, or even read the research. So I'm trusting her ;-)

We consistently use "time-out" for our two year old. And to my great and pleasant surpise, it actually works!! As for the two older children, they were not raised during their more formative years with "time-out" as the means of discipline. In fact, they were basically raised with no discipline at all!

There are many, many occasions where I feel the need to whack one (or both) of them - but we are trying very hard to utilize other forms of discipline (i.e., grounding, no TV/video games, etc.).

It will be interesting to see the long-term results - if I survive that is!