As witty as you think that post was, it really was just crap.

You try to tell me that belief in something after you have seen it is not faith. I showed you a definition that might mean that you were wrong. Accept that or not, I could really give half a crap. Additionally, I could give half a crap if you believe what I believe about God. It doesn't hurt you for me to believe that God gives people a second chance. It might make you feel like your getting gyp'd or like your club isn't as exclusive, but that's your problem, not mine.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

Because "my God" has given that person every opportunity to believe that God sent Christ as his saviour.

Well, not really. He's only given that person one last opportunity, that's all. Not every last opportunity.

Yet the Church has taught that the living can help the dead by praying for their souls while they are in Purgatory. The fate of a soul can change after death.

Yes, the Church still teaches that the living can help the dead by praying for their souls while they're in Purgatory. No, the fate of a soul cannot change after death. The fate of every soul in Purgatory is already determined- they're going to Heaven sooner or later. They're saved. They're fated for Paradise. It isn't as if Purgatory is a holding pen where you wait while God decides what to do with you, and people on earth can pray for you and help sway His decision. The decision is made at the moment of death.

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

you can have faith in things seen and unseen.

Sorry man, you can't, and your dictionary definitions dont support that claim at all. (are those the actual definitions or your paraphrasing?)

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_______________________________________________

"are those the actual definitions or your paraphrasing?) "

Word for word.

"Sorry man, you can't, and your dictionary definitions dont support that claim at all."

Really? How so? Nothing in the definitions say that it only applies if you have no direct knowledge of the thing you have faith in. What consitutes direct knowledge? If a person says they see God in the plants and trees and the world around him, do they no longer have faith, but rather knowledge?

this is from the Catholic Encyclopedia:

"we are now in a position to define the virtue of faith as a supernatural habit by which we firmly believe those things to be true which God has revealed."
Not, belief in something we can't see, but belief in those things which God has revealed to us.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

Romans 7:6
But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

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KEEP ON TRI-NG

Not, belief in something we can't see, but belief in those things which God has revealed to us.

Not so hot, commodore. First you tried to shoehorn the pocket dictionary definition of faith into a religious discussion in which that definition is out of context, and now your misprepresenting what we understand to be the meaning of revelation in terms of religious belief.

But, if you want to say that Catholics believe because God revealed himself to us directly, I guess I can go with that. ;)

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

"But, if you want to say that Catholics believe because God revealed himself to us directly, I guess I can go with that"

I'm saying that your church doesn't necessariy say that faith only pertains to things unseen. I'm not interpreting your Churches teachings, just quoting from a Catholic site. As i said before, I could give a half a crap if you believe what i do.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

In John 10 Jesus talks about how the sheep will follow the shepherd because they know his voice. And Jesus is referring to Himself as the shepherd. And the only way to really know our shepherd, Jesus, is to be reading and familiarizing ourselves with His word, the Bible. And that is the problem, in my opinion, why we have so many disagreements. I am not calling anybody out here. I only ask you to think to yourselves. Do you regularly spend time reading the Bible. If not, how do you think that you will know what God wants from you?

Duey

Many Christains from different backgrounds have differing opinions on how to follow the Bible's teachings. But, for the most part, we agree on the most important things, such as salvation by Faith alone, love your neighbor, etc. I wonder, can a person argue what God wants from us if they don't spend time studying His teachings?

I know that for myself, when I am challenged on a subject that I don't know much about, I research it. And this website challeges me often. So I often spend time reading the Bible to see if what people here say is correct. I want to know my shepherds voice. Does that make sense? Do any of you who argue what God says spend time reading the Bible or checking out what it says to backup the arguments that you make?

But, for the most part, we agree on the most important things, such as salvation by Faith alone

Stop. Do not pass go, do not collect $200.

Do any of you who argue what God says spend time reading the Bible or checking out what it says to backup the arguments that you make?

Nah, I usually just wing it.

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

 
I love the " my god is better than yours " or My religion ,

Let ye with a perfect religion cast their bike into the sea,

Because of things like this, posted here last May...

"I have been a life long Christian, so I have no experience with atheism. My question is, if you don't believe in God or some other higher power, what keeps you from going wild? If you are purely a product of evolution that once dead is only reduced to worm food, what's the point? What prevents you from going out into the world and raping and stealing all you can? After all, once you're dead you're dead right. You won't have to answer for anything. Why don't you live your life with reckless abandon? Eat anything you want, fuck anything you want, say anything you want?

I'm very curious about what would motivate an atheist to do anything outside of that which satisfies the urge of the moment."

I believe in God, so I have a reason to be good...what keeps you athiests from killing and eating each other? Scary....talk about judgemental.

I just jumped into this thread and noticed the previous post. Actually, I noticed that it sounds like something I may have written. If that is actually from me, I just want to say that the statement does not reflect my current point of view. Chalk it up to having more interaction with atheists and a better understanding of their POV [and major self-reflections have taken place].

Those statements/questions, if they are or are not from me, are both misguided and ill-informed. It would not be unlike me to say something, and then at a later date, shake my head at my own comments. We live and learn.

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In short, IMO, religious folks are viewed as judgemental (if that be the case) b/c they do not have relative morality (each person having their own interpretation of what is right/wrong) ... they have a source of definitive right/wrong ... and when this morality is voiced, it often comes across (or can come across) as judgemental.

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-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

Wasn't you, it was someone who posts as "Matt Boutte". Most posts I've seen by you seem pretty reasoned...thought I'd dig up some judgemental dirt on you from posts on the pledge, 250 pound people, etc...no luck :)

   If that's the case, I'll take hell.

Really?

Does that mean nevermind all the stuff in the old testament?

Yes. First off, I am an athiest, so obviously I don't believe that there is a god. I am of course willing to admit the possiblity that I could be wrong (something that strangely I've found most Christians are not). However, I don't even like the idea of a god so why would I want to spend eternity with one?

Does that mean nevermind all the stuff in the old testament?

http://www.wcg.org/.../gospels/matt517.htm

Here's an article I found that explains the relationship between the new covenant (new testament, Jesus) and the old covenant (old testament, Law of Moses).

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-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

I believe in God, so I have a reason to be good...what keeps you athiests from killing and eating each other? Scary....talk about judgemental.

While the implications of the question- or rather, its answer- are scary enough, the question is not judgemental. It's a legitimate philosophical question, and one for which the the resident atheists have been unable to provide an anwer for. Or at least, one that holds up to more than a minute's scrutiny.

Re-stated (again- and I think you did ask pretty much this same question, once, TripleThreat), the question is: If you don't believe in God, and therefore don't believe that God is the measure of morality, what do you base your moral code on?

The answer from the atheists is sometimes that what's good for society as a whole, or the advancement of the human race, is moral, and that what hinders that development is immoral. But the thoughtful person soon recognizes that there are a host of actions which we firmly believe to be immoral, while at the same time beneficial to society in a utilitarian sense. So much for that argument.

What it the discussion usually ends up is with the atheists asserting that we can't ever really know if an act is inherently immoral or not, it just depends on how a person feels about it. If it feels icky (to the individual), it's wrong. If it feels OK, who's anybody else to tell him otherwise?

The answer to the question, really, is nothing much at all. Nothing more substantial than each individuals own private feelings.

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

"here are a host of actions which we firmly believe to be immoral, while at the same time beneficial to society in a utilitarian sense."

Such as? Not trying to start anything, just curious as to what things you think are good for society, but are immoral.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

Some examples might include:

Slavery. Slavery has been of tremendous benefit to certain societies. Much of the world's great literature, science, philosophy, and thought has been made possible by the leisure afforded to the owning class by slavery.

Infanticide. Diseased, deformed, retarded, or otherwise weak babies represent a large potential drain on the resources of the parents and society at large, with little chance of returning that investment in the future. Killing them quick has enabled many societies to focus their resources on babies which are less of a drain and more likely to be a productive member of society. (This is sometimes one of the reasons given in defense of abortion, in fact.)

Euthanasia: See infanticide. (Interesting how social mores against "mercy killing" seem to breaking down before our eyes, isn't it?)

Polygamy: I think Ken once mentioned to me that some social scientist had determined that polygamy presented the best and most efficient reproduction system for society. The model, if I understood correctly, assumed that only a wealthy man would be free to marry, while poor men wouldn't. A wealthy man, I guess, is better able to provide materially for multiple women than a poor man is able to provide for one woman. (Maybe Ken can refresh my memory as to the specifics?)

There are endless possible examples, I suppose.

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Polygamy:
Good for the wealthy guy. Then what you have is a vast number of unmarriable men. Good luck with that. Read recently about how worried people are about tha in China (given past killing of girl babies), how large numbers of 20-40 year old unattached males can be very disruptive to society.

Slavery:
Perhaps allowing a "leisure class" has resulted in some steps forward in some of the areas you mention, assuming there were enough slaves. I'm thinking like Roman or ancient Greek times. But is the slaves suffering worth the "advance" in literature? As for slavery in the U.S., I've read in a few places how it actually hurt the development of an economy in the South.

Perhaps allowing a "leisure class" has resulted in some steps forward in some of the areas you mention, assuming there were enough slaves. I'm thinking like Roman or ancient Greek times.

Think, like, the large majority of world history.

But is the slaves suffering worth the "advance" in literature?

Well, the advances which you so condescendingly qualify with quotations go far beyond the field of literature. They encompass really every human endeavor- not only literature, but science, architecture, agriculture, and on and on.

But is the slaves suffering worth the "advance" in literature?

That all depends on your point of view. ;) I myself don't think so, especially if I was one of the poor unfortunate slaves. But if the ultimate measure of the morality of an action is how it contributes or detracts from the advancement and stability of a society, or some evolutionary criteria related to the survival of the human species, you're hard pressed to say slavery is immoral. Historically, lots of societies have had great success in both advancement and stability by basing their society on slavery, it's contributed to the advancement of human knowledge, and it certainly hasn't shown itself to be a system that threatens the survival of the human race.

Notice you didn't say anything about infanticide- how about that? Moral or immoral?

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."