Tom, what are your thoughts on a mandatory military service (say 2 years like Israel). Do you think it would degrade the overall morale and skills of the military since it would not be all volunteer?

I did a six year stint as a nuclear power plant operator, I don't know how much it cost to train me but I'm sure it was a hell of a lot.

Hmm, I think you're right about a mandatory military service commitment de-grading the effectiveness of the current force structure. I agree with that.

Interestingly, and I don't mean to sound like a broken record, Barnett's book discusses the division of the current military into a "Leviathan Force", the guys doing the warfighting, and a "System Administration" force that would handle transitional periods from combat to stbilization/sovereignty.

Perhaps a national mandatory service requirement could populate the System Administration force in a number of entirely non-combat capacities such as education, construction/rebuilding, environmentalism and conservation, relief work, medical services, economic recovry service, etc.

This would provide people who are adverse to military service an option while still serving their counter and the world in a constructive fashion.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

Do you not see the folly of including SS in that pie chart?





ar Resisters League creates this leaflet each year after the President releases a proposed budget. The figures here are from a line-by-line analysis of projected figures in the “Analytical Perspectives” book of the Budget of the United States Government, Fiscal Year 2005. The percentages are federal funds, which do not include trust funds such as Social Security that are raised and spent separately from income taxes. What you pay (or don’t pay) by April 15, 2004, goes only to the federal funds portion of the budget. The government practice of combining trust and federal funds (the so-called “Unified Budget”) began in the 1960s during the Vietnam War. The government presentation makes the human needs portion of the budget seem larger and the military portion smaller.

It's easier tp promote nationalism when its 'us against them'. It's easier to demonize and kill a people you don't know. Its easier to dismiss a culture you don't understand. Its way easier to fight a nameless, faceless enemy.

I'm being serious here, I am kinda lost on this: Is this too suggest that defence spending is somehow deflated in the tax return pie chart or that there is more spending than represented by conveniently "categorizing" it elsewhere?

Like I said, I'm hazy on the point here. Call me dense...

But, if this chart is an attempt to undermine the (my) argument that defence spending is a bargain then suggest we go ahead and back payrolls to the military out of this chart- since it is paid back to taxpayers- and then re-evaluate.

Again- I'm hazy on the point here. Give me the Reader's Digest please....

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

I hear you, and you right.

But I will add this: If nationalism is patriotism, belief in what the country was founded on and what it stands for (or, in fairness, what my opinion is of what it stands for), then yeah, I count me in.

I've been there, done that- seen the worst and the best. From what I've seen , we are the best hing going by far. Doesn't mean we are perfect, doesn't mean there aren't other fine countries. But it does mean I think our country is the best one and the best national agenda to subscribe to, believe in, advocate, and even spread around in the abscence of something else good.

And when the sovereignty and security of our country is willfully threatened, what we have here is worth fighting for. When the basic human rights of people anywhere are oppressed, it is our place as the most privleged nation to liberate them- sometimes through armed intervention as a last resort.

The U.S. makes tragic and terribly costly mistakes. There is no denying that, but it does dso in the pursuit of a greater good- and there is no endeavor without risk, no progress without setbacks. T have the courage to invest in a better, newer reality is to have the courage to risk failure, and our country does that.

Sometimes we do fail, but we fail in pursuit of an admirable goal- and in failure we are resolved to continue the work toward a better tomorrow. It requires resolve, endurance, rigor and resilience. Those are fixtures in our national character.

Our government is not an evil conspiracy or "old boy network" bent on conquest and empire. It is not. It is not a bunch of self-important Texas old boys running amoke around the world in search of cheap oil at the cost of U.S. and foreign lives. George Bush is not the idiotic figure Michael Moore would have you believe.

Our government is a huge organization of mostly fine people working tirelessly around the world on a Herculean task 24/7 never giving up, loooking toward a better tomorrow just as Francis Scott Key did when he penned our national anthem from a ship in harbor during war.

It is not this twisted, subversive, occult union of conspirators- the CIA is not this organization monitoring you and I under the Orwellian guise of the Patriot Act.

It is not that.

It is a system, falliable like all systems, trying to do good, mostly doing it, leading the world, and sometimes falling short- but always getting back up, dusting itself off, and moving forward.

So, that is why I am not cynical. Because I have seen the rest of the world at its best and its worst.

Nice place to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

The Feds took $6K from my severance check a few weeks ago. I'm sure some of that money went to the Tsunami relief. However, if they could take the same money to buy a fuse for a Daisycutter (MOAB) and paint "Greetings from Mojozenmaster" on the side of the bomb, I would feel better about it.

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**All of these words finding themselves together were greatly astonished and delighted for assuredly, they had never met before**

I agree with you, that is the only way to fight a war, but it doesn't diminish the fact that the middle east is a horribly backward place stuck some where between ancient history and today.

Holy shit, I've been gone from the Lavender Room for a while!

5280, replace "middle east" in your subject title with "jew" and you're a textbook Nazi.

>Is this too suggest that defence spending is somehow
>deflated in the tax return pie chart or that there is more
>spending than represented by conveniently
>"categorizing" it elsewhere?

Yes.

I forgot to include that link: www.warresisters.org/piechart.htm

What gave you that idea? The fact that 1/2 the people think we should nuke the place, or the fact that the other 1/2 think they just need 'reeducation'?

Have you been to the Middle East?

Or are you basing it on what you see and hear in the media about the Middle East?

(Not a flame just wondering what your experience is)

Ok... Dude, I will count to 10 and let you either take back the remark and apologize or we can trade insults all day. I am fine with hurling insults about you and your family all day if you want. I am nothing of the kind and I would just tell you that it is a really good thing for you that this is internet forum. There have only been a few people to light me anger on this forum and you just added yourself to the short list.

I didn't say anything about the people or races of those countries. I didn't call for any extermination or removal of any country from the face of the planet, which by the way some mid east countries have done regarding Israel.

Unless and until you apologize you can simply FUCK off. Have a good weekend

Man you guys are just silly. No one has made ANY comment even closely related to be a Nazi. If this thread was about how screwed up the US is or how bad of a guy GWB is you two would be the first ones in. The charge of being called a Nazi is beyond the pale, to me anyaway. If you guys really believe this conversation resembles being a Nazi in any way then you are sad little people with no clue about what the Nazi's really did.

Try this again, wrote the response and wouldn't reply. Fair question, and the answer is no. I am aware that I have no first hand knowledge in those countries, although a small amount with people from those countries here. I base my opinions about that part of the world on things I read and see on tv from our media and their media. I know that, just like the US, it is a small filter and I will state again, despite what my friends who poste above have accused me of, I don't hate people from the mid east. This isn't about hatred or dislike. I think that the culture, as a whole, has some very clear issues and that if not for the tremendous revenues from the oil it would be more pronounced. The fact that they have some serious failures in their culture is no different then what people here have said about the US and the culture here, some just get angry because you are not supposed to make judgements or point out weakness anymore.

Well, I guess a paralell argument should be made that all the military payrolls should be backed out of the defence budget since that moeny is returned back to our economy.

Ooops. Pie chart just got way smaller.

There are a lot of "intangible" benefits to our defense budget: Technology, space program, GPS, the Internet, military payrolls, etc. etc.

I would argue those influences have had a greater positive effect on our economy and lifestyle than has social security and welfare.

How has social security helped develop the space shuttle? the communications satelite? the GPS? The cell phone? Kevlar fibers? supersonic travel? Gore-Tex? malaria-small pox- and other vaccines and on and on and on.

Defence budget inflated? Most of the technology incorporated in the manufacture of the new Airbus A380 was developed under funding for other defense projects such as the C-5A transport and other very large aircraft.

The Lockeheed F-117 Nighthawk was developed from concept to flying prototype (the "Have Blue" development stage) in only 175 days and for less than Ford Motor Company spent to develop the Taurus and Sable. That aircraft accounted for only 2% of the total aircraft in theater during Gulf War I (Desert Storm) but hit 60% of the high value targets. That is pretty cost efficient- and the civilian benefit was improvments in GPS and communication. It isn't a coincidence that in vehicle and in cell phone GPS became common after Gulf War I.

Now, I will not for one moment argue that the pursuit of better technology is worth fighting a war. It isn't. but it is worth acknowledging that there are tangible benefits to defense spending outside of war, and that those benefits equal or exceed the benfits of social programs like welfare, etc.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

Put it this way: The school lunch program never bought me a bike shop. The school lunch program never taught me three languages, the school lunch program didn't fly may ass to five continents. The school lunch program didn't teach me to run a business in a hostile environment.

Social security didn't even give us enough to bury my dad.

Speaking entirely for myself- the most important social program in my life was the U.S. Army.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

I am just being silly. Officially, any invocation of Nazis triggers Godwin's Law, and the thread is declared dead.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

One of the reasons that I asked was a lot of the ground based military friends that I have (mostly air force) have a really bad view of Saudi Arabia. I was in the gulf, on ship, when the barracks were hit and they have every right to have a negative perception.

I agree that is a very different culture (I don't want to say backward or bad because that doesn't really fit how I feel). I spent about 15 days on liberty out and about in UAE and Oman and another 5 days in the UAE were all personnel were restricted to the international zone (about a mile wide strip of sand around the harbor). Almost all of the people that I met had a few things in common 1) they wanted to practice the English that they knew (which is cool to hear) 2) they didn't hate Americans (even military guys) 3) they didn't like the American policy toward Israel (start of the first intufada) 4) they were general working class shmoo's like most Americans, trying to make a buck and unlike most Americans not get blown up or shot while doing it.

The average working guy in the Middle East (excluding Saudi Arabia were secondary education in Theology is very common more on that later) has a limited education and gets a lot of their views from the Friday sermon at the mosque. If you or I got all of our news from a man that was a xenophobe/fear monger/hate monger how different would our outlooks be? Freedom of and access to the press is a huge influence in Europe and the United States it allows us to see different perspective on the same issue not just whatever the government's official line is.

Besides freedom of the press imagine living in a country that imposes the death penalty for converting away from the state religion. That is some scary stuff; it stifles free thought as much as freedom of religion. There are also 'Morality Police' that roam the streets in packs and deal out beating for infractions (western clothing, kite flying, other stuff).

A theocratic government that controls a huge amount of wealth needs to keep its people happy. Saudi Arabia isn't doing this, now that is a welfare state, huge amounts of foreign workers doing jobs that the citizens won't because the job is beneath them since they have a college education in theology. Half of your citizens can't drive or work outside the home (women) how would America's economy be doing right now if we never had women in the workforce?

I don't mind you pointing out weaknesses or problems in other cultures, I just wanted to point out that we are probably more alike with the average working stiff than we are different. But the Middle East is dominated by rigid fundamentalism right now and that is the face most people see.

Shad, appreciate your insight and that is what I have been driving at, and why the Nazi comment makes me so angry. This isn't about me hating anyone. I understand and agree that it is their source of info (their religion) and the control their governments hold (partly through religion) that form there frame of reference. I hold their religous beliefs largely accountable for the state of those countries. Ruling by a religion that promotes fear and violence through extrememly harsh punishments has proven to be ineffective in running a happy and productive society. I just read a story about the use of stoning in Iran. The stoning of women in front of families as punishment for nothing more than adultery or refusing to marry the man chosen.

I understand that this is a different culture and that I don't understand the complexities of it but none the less some acts, customs and laws are just wrong and barbaric.

Thanks one of my goals this years was to not got into arguments with people on the internet (sigh it looks horrible when you write it down). I want to try and figure out why I think why I do and also why you think why you do. Unfortunately I'm not always right but I'm always will to tell you why I think I am. Just don't call me a Nazi ;)

Agreed:) and I try real hard not to let things here make me mad and with a few people and posts as exceptions I have done pretty well, but sometimes....:)

On behalf of the general population of the friendly tribe of slowtwitch, I move that Shad be appointed Slowtwitch Ambassador to the Southwest Asian Theater of Operations.

His insight into the middle eastern culture is balanced and sagacious. Well done sir. And I am 100% serious.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

What a trip man. I tell you that saying "Another example of how the Jew is a drain on the world" would be textbook Nazi crap and your anger rears it's ugly head. I didn't call you or anybody else here a Nazi, I was merely pointing out that there are voices in your head that are speaking a parrallel message to a group of people known for their hatred and anger. You obviously have anger issues as well, otherwise you wouldn't be telling me that "it is a really good thing for" me "that this is an internet forum." That's classic. Otherwise you'd kick my ass right? For stating my observation in a dialogue you started? The fact of the matter is that you were talking about the people and races of those countries, and even mentioned their religion. When you say the middle east is a drain on the world I really can't imagine you were talking about the animals, or the plants, or the geography, etc. over there, no, you were talking about the people as a whole and their way of life, which you then went on to admit you don't actually know anything about.

Just wondering, did you actually count to ten? Does that work? Feel free to have the last word, I just wanted to be sure you realized my intention was not to call you or anybody who agrees with you a Nazi.

Thanks for the last word. I know I should let it slide but it is my anger management issue you have discovered I guess

5280, you're a textbook Nazi

replace "middle east" in your subject title with "jew" and

I didn't call you or anybody else here a Nazi. You did, see above

for their hatred and anger That is the point, I am not angry at them nor do I hate them

You obviously have anger issues as well, otherwise you wouldn't be telling me that "it is a really good thing for" me "that this is an internet forum." That's classic. Otherwise you'd kick my ass right? What you called me is enough to make me angry and if you don't understand why then I guess I have an anger management issue. I am not interested in kicking anyone's ass. The advantage to the internet is that I can walk away rather than having to listen to your unbelievable name calling.

The fact of the matter is that you were talking about the people and races of those countries, and even mentioned their religion. When you say the middle east is a drain on the world I really can't imagine you were talking about the animals, or the plants, or the geography, etc. over there, no, you were talking about the people as a whole and their way of life, which you then went on to admit you don't actually know anything about. Your right, I am talking about those people and my opinion of those parts of the world, however negative or positive, has nothing to do with the beliefs of Nazi's. Disagree with me and even call me dumb or uneducated that is fine with me but you and moveon.org should get a reign on the term "Nazi" . Maybe look here and tell me if what I said comes close

http://vigrid.clarence.com/...sati%20Auschwitz.JPG

Just wondering, did you actually count to ten? Does that work?Yeah I did, and no it didn't. I read your comment twice because I wanted to be sure I really read what I thought I did.

I just wanted to be sure you realized my intention was not to call you or anybody who agrees with you a Nazi. Well, I don't see that in what you wrote in this post or your previous post so I will leave the discussion here. It saddens me that you or anyone would equate any opinion I have with that of those who put 100's of thousands to their death.

which you then went on to admit you don't actually know anything about I haven't been to the moon either, have you? Doesn't mean I don't know anything about it. If you are an expert please list your qualifications and educate me.

I do apologize for the way I vented my anger at you it was a poor choice.