Here's a link to a BBC page with entries from people actually from Iraq, it shoudl be interesting to see how it develops

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/middle_east/2004/iraq_log/default.stm

and here's a link reporting that the hospital system in Iraq isn't terribly well off.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4054105.stm

"The war is a continuing public health disaster that was predictable - and should have been preventable"

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http://pavlov.psyc.queensu.ca/~psyc382/rockgold.html
(Norman Rockwell's "Do Unto Others")

Agreed, alot of resources have been and are being used in Iraq. The mission dictates the size of the force neccessary. It would be a HUGE waste of manpwer to have a couple of heavy armored divisions in Afghanistan. Where Bin Laden is most likely hiding (in the mountains) the best way to look for him is with Special Forces and covert operatives. Trust me we are maximizing those resources. As I previously posted you do not and will not hear or see what they are doing because of operational security. We do not have embedded reporters with these units. I can tell you Special Forces units not normally assigned to that geographic region are also working there. These guys are the best and WILL finish what we started.

What's your point?

And your point is? Should we pull pitch and bale out on these poor people or stand and fight, rid their country of these cruel conditions, and provide freedom and democracy for them? It is not going well in some places in Iraq but is going well in others. We must stay the course and see this through. It will take a firm committment and a strong stomach to endure some of the terrible things still happening but there is no other option. Terrorists can not be bargained or negotiated with. Sorry there just is no other way.



One other thing you need to know is I am not some war monger, death hungry soldier. Soldiers hate war more than anyone. We (most of us) just know that sometimes death is inevitable and war is terrible but we pledged an oath to perform these duties to the best of our abilities.

[reply]What's your point?[/reply]

I thought that was Tibbs favourite line.

uuuuuuuh, my point, incisive286, is that people who are on the ground and provide information about what I happening in Iraq can come from different walks of life and from different roles. And sometimes they say things that aren't so good and that sometimes they are not terribly optimistic about the future because they, as the people of the wonderful country (how may times to you hear that in the news?) 'we' were trying to liberate and we are now trying to spread democracy to, haven't been given much to be hopeful about, and I would rather read things that have some significance to their daily experience rather than the knee jerk "ooh I have to post this in the Lavender room because it's GOOD NEWS about Iraq" pattern of posting we see now. If you pull your head out of your How To Take The Party Line Manual long enough, you might be able to read some of the comment by Iraqis saying that yes, some things are better in Iraq. But no, it's easier just to type in "What's your point?" in some kind of passive aggressive pseudo-contributory manner that has alas, become your trademark.


Is that clearer?

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http://pavlov.psyc.queensu.ca/~psyc382/rockgold.html
(Norman Rockwell's "Do Unto Others")

Thanks for providing commentary to support your click and paste method of arguing.

Your debate tactics are getting better now that you're able to provide personal insight along with informative articles supporting your side.

I give you a B-.

[reply]Sorry there just is no other way.[/reply]

Well, we'll just have to agree to disagree on that, won't we?

I don't think I wrote that we should abandon Iraq at this stage, did I? I think the least the country deserves after being pissed about by anyone who had a chance is to be set on the right path. But I am having trouble seeing that making the country a beacon for anyone who wants to take a crack at a uniform is a step in that direction.

I was merely trying to add to the information available to people about what was happening on the ground. Wasn't that why you posted your link?

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http://pavlov.psyc.queensu.ca/~psyc382/rockgold.html
(Norman Rockwell's "Do Unto Others")

 I too was trying to add a different information to what is happening in Iraq. I feel we are inundated with too much bad news and not enough good news. My link to this book was merely an opportunity to see some of that good news. I suspect we view differently the amount of bad news thats presented to us. I think there is too much and you think there is not enough.

"I feel we are inundated with too much bad news and not enough good news."

I'm a bit cynical about these "feel good" stories involving Iraq. I'm old enough to remember the Viet Nam era very well, and although Iraq is not the same, during the Viet Nam war there were all kinds of official "support the soldiers" stories about the war and "how well" things were going over there. Turned out most of these stories were largely propaganda.

Like it or not, Dubya has been given a four year mandate to continue with what he started in Iraq. We'll just have to watch what he does and sit back and see what happens. I truly hope that peace, democracy and an end to suffering really does come to Iraq. But like I keep saying....let's just wait and see. For now, that's all we can do.

[reply]I suspect we view differently the amount of bad news thats presented to us. I think there is too much and you think there is not enough.[/reply]

So you like to characterise me as someone who greets stories of loss and pain with glee? Nice.

What I think is there is not enough of, is realism. If you only post and read good news stories, then of course you think things are going well. But as much as you want it to be so, things haven't gone well for the people that matter - people at the pointy end of things - and documenting that and holding people responsible for that seems like it has gone out of fashion.

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http://pavlov.psyc.queensu.ca/~psyc382/rockgold.html
(Norman Rockwell's "Do Unto Others")

I did not mean to infer you are someone who greets stories of loss and pain with glee. My point is I would be willing to bet you can not name or reference for me more than a handful of mainstream media "good news" stories. They just do not exist. The fact someone had to write a book, and so far its very obscure, to bring out anything good happening in Iraq is proof (to me) that good news is just not reported.

You won't say anything that will make tri_larry change his view. It's his right to publicly express his ideas even though the appreciation is deeply distorted and clouded.

Mocking one's faith is a weak attempt to try to put some semblance of credence to his argument. Unfortunately it lacks class and only weakens his argument.




It would appear that it is not just tri_larry lacking class when you attempt to take the moral high ground by stating it is his right to express his ideas and in the same sentence state that they are deeply distorted and clouded.

Stating he has the right to his opinions but that they are essentially crap also lacks class.

Case of the pot calling the kettle black I think.

Just like school on saturday, no class.

Not only insulting, but condescending whilst still trying vainly not to repeat 7th grade (I make no pretense of having class)