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Re: Greatest aircraft of WW2. [Trevor S] [ In reply to ]
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"Also you can blame the Conservative Party all you want but "

Oh my God Trev! Can the Conservatives (or conservatives) do nothing wrong?

Next thing you'll post is that Brian Mulroney was Canada's greatest prime minister!!
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Re: Greatest aircraft of WW2. [Mr. Tibbs] [ In reply to ]
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Since most of my fav's have already been taken, I don't think that anyone has selected the P-38 Lighting. The Germans called it "The Forked Devil".

"Lockheed P-38 Lighting
The Lightning was designed in 1937 as a high-altitude interceptor. The first one built, the XP-38, made its public debut on February 11, 1939 by flying from California to New York in seven hours. Because of its unorthodox design, the airplane experienced "growing pains" and it required several years to perfect it for combat. Late in 1942, it went into large-scale operations during the North African campaign where the German Luftwaffe named it "Der Gabelschwanz Teufel" -- "The Forked-Tail Devil." Equipped with droppable fuel tanks under its wings, the P-38 was used extensively as a long-range escort fighter and saw action in practically every major combat area of the world. A very versatile aircraft, the Lightning was also used for dive bombing, level bombing, ground strafing and photo reconnaissance missions. By the end of production in 1945, 9,923 P-38s had been built."
http://www.aviation-central.com/1940-1945/images/aef3d-cl.jpg
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Re: Greatest aircraft of WW2. [cerveloguy] [ In reply to ]
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"Also you can blame the Conservative Party all you want but "

Oh my God Trev! Can the Conservatives (or conservatives) do nothing wrong?

Next thing you'll post is that Brian Mulroney was Canada's greatest prime minister!!
Its like you can read my mind....:-)
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Re: Greatest aircraft of WW2. [Trevor S] [ In reply to ]
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It sucks being from a smaller country sometimes. The Canadian built Avro Arrow of the 1950's was considered the best international fighter of it's time but in all their wisdom, the Conservative Party government of prime minister John Deifenbaker opted to kill the project. Even today this political action is regarded as a prime candidate for the Canadian Hall of Shame.



I don't know were you got that idea. The Arrow was never fully flight tested, never flew with its intended engine, electronics or weapons system. Also at the time it was behind schedule, way over budget and most importantly no other countries had shown interest in purchasing it.

Also you can blame the Conservative Party all you want but the Liberals under St. Laurant had planned to cancel the project themselves but were waiting to after an election they had expected to win.

No just Liberal CBC revisionist history. :)


Please don't interrupt Cerveloguy's weeping for the Arrow with annoying facts. ;-)

Being an aircraft enthusiast who spent a year in Canada recently, I studied the Arrow a bit, and came to the conclusion that it had little chance of meeting its goals on anything near budget or schedule. It was rare at the time for any one aircraft project to introduce a new airframe, engine, and weapons system at one shot, and that was exactly what the Arrow attempted to do, and funded by a tax base that couldn't have supported its development. Canada had (and to some degree, still has) a vibrant aerospace engineering industry, but the Arrow would have strangled companies twice the size of Avro at the time.

Of course, the US was painted as the bad guy, especially when the CBC "dramatized" it, with US armtwisting to buy the Bomarc.

Here's an interesting, very detailed history on the Arrow, on a Canadian site, which reaches a similar conclusion.

http://www.csd.uwo.ca/...her_other/arrow.html
Last edited by: skater: Nov 15, 04 5:30
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Re: Greatest aircraft of WW2. [Mr. Tibbs] [ In reply to ]
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Greatest fighter plane in the early part of the war was the Spitfire because it saved Great Britain in the Battle of Britain. Greatest fighter plane overall was the P-51 because it provided continuous fighter escort all the way to Berlin, which meant that the B-17s and B-24s could flatten Germany in daylight raids without losing a tremendous percentage of planes in raids.

Greatest heavy bomber would have been the Lancaster in Europe and the B-29 in the Pacific.

Greatest dive bomber would be the Dauntless because it won the Battle of Midway and turned the tide of the Pacific War.

The C-47 may have still been the most significant plane in WWII. I've heard it said that amateurs talk tactics while professional talk logistics. The C-47 was the most important logistical airplane.

Most beautiful planes were the P-38 or the Corsair because their designs were so unique and the results so deadly to the enemy.
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Re: Greatest aircraft of WW2. [Mr. Tibbs] [ In reply to ]
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P 47. the muscle car of WWII aircraft. i'd love to fly in one today. i'd pay a lot for that.

and, this plane aloft certainly the most blessed sight of post-D-day allied ground soldiers fighting in france/germany.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Greatest aircraft of WW2. [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I my grandfather loves to talk about patorls of the big Jugs screaming over head and firing off their 8x.50s at the Germans.

customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.
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Re: Greatest aircraft of WW2. [cerveloguy] [ In reply to ]
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Least sexy but most underrated: PBY Catalina. Finding Japanese convoys, subs, and rescuing downed aviators. Extremely important, but often overlooked work.

Sexiest and definately NOT underrated: P-51. Without it, 30-50% of B-17's didn't make it back. With it, that number improved significantly.

Overrated: Zero was initially the best fighter in the Pacific, but the Hellcat beat it easily once it came out.

Also overrated: ME-262 came in too late and too little to do any good. Also, it could be out-turned by just about anything.
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Re: Greatest aircraft of WW2. [Mr. Tibbs] [ In reply to ]
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I'm going to put a late bid in for the De Havilland Mosquito. A great all round WOOD plane built for all sorts of missions - bombing, night fighting, photo reconnaissance - without any extra armaments.

http://www.2worldwar2.com/mosquito.htm

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(Norman Rockwell's "Do Unto Others")
Last edited by: goobie: Nov 15, 04 8:00
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Re: Greatest aircraft of WW2. [tri_bri2] [ In reply to ]
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Least sexy but most underrated: PBY Catalina. Finding Japanese convoys, subs, and rescuing downed aviators. Extremely important, but often overlooked work.

Sexiest and definately NOT underrated: P-51. Without it, 30-50% of B-17's didn't make it back. With it, that number improved significantly.

Overrated: Zero was initially the best fighter in the Pacific, but the Hellcat beat it easily once it came out.

Also overrated: ME-262 came in too late and too little to do any good. Also, it could be out-turned by just about anything.


PBY - The Battle of Midway wouldn't have been won without it.

Zero - Maybe the biggest problem was that Japanese industrial capability was crippled enough that they couldn't come out with a successor, and they were stuck with the same aircraft throughout the whole war, a problem that the US didn't have (US started with P-40s, F-4F Wildcats, and Brewster Buffalos, ended with P-38s, P-51, although not many in the PAC theater, F-6F hellcats and F-4U Corsairs).

ME-262 - what was the preferred technique for a -51 to shoot one down? Wait for it to run low on fuel (which happened very quickly), then nail it as it came in for a landing.
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Re: Greatest aircraft of WW2. [skater] [ In reply to ]
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Zero - Maybe the biggest problem was that Japanese industrial capability was crippled enough that they couldn't come out with a successor, and they were stuck with the same aircraft throughout the whole war, a problem that the US didn't have.
I think the biggest advantage that the US had was related to its ideals as a society. We built fighter planes that protected our pilots because we believed in individuals and their rights. The Japanese did not, but instead believed that death in battle was a goal to be achieved. While we certainly honored those that made the ultimate sacrifice for the rest of us, our attitude was that expressed by General Patton: "No one ever won a war by dying for his country. You win a war by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country." I have read that the Japanese had developed some planes with the incredible climbing ability needed to go after the B-29s, but after their first line pilots were slaughtered by our naval aviators, they could never train enough to replace them.
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Re: Greatest aircraft of WW2. [tri_bri2] [ In reply to ]
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"Overrated: Zero was initially the best fighter in the Pacific, but the Hellcat beat it easily once it came out. "

Watched an excellent hour long documentary about the Zero on one of the history channels not long ago. Confirms exactly what you say. It was an airplane to be feared at the start of the war, but as time progressed, technology on our side surpassed it.
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Re: Greatest aircraft of WW2. [cerveloguy] [ In reply to ]
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I recall that as the war progressed, our kill ratios over the Zero became something like 60:1. Of course training and experience had a lot to do with that, too. Planes don't fly themselves (or at least they didn't back then.)
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Re: Greatest aircraft of WW2. [tri_bri2] [ In reply to ]
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Sounds like you enjoy WWII military history as much as I do. Imagine a poor Kamikaze strapped into one of these things.

Nice summary of the different models here:

http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Zero%20Fighter
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Re: Greatest aircraft of WW2. [Mr. Tibbs] [ In reply to ]
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B-17. Because I spent most of my childhood pretending I was in one, shooting down Germans. My grandfather was a tailgunner in the war.

Runner up- P-38. Coolest looking plane ever.








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: Greatest aircraft of WW2. [Mr. Tibbs] [ In reply to ]
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As a Lockheed employee it is my duty ...



Although I also like ...



and ...



(this is the "H" model , with a 75mm cannon in the nose ... the aircraft would actually stop in midair from the recoil)

"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin
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Re: Greatest aircraft of WW2. [Mr. Tibbs] [ In reply to ]
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I'm surprised that nobody has nominated the Focke-Wulf FW 190. One can argue the BEST constantly, but the FW 190 was clearly among the top contenders.
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Re: Greatest aircraft of WW2. [Trevor S] [ In reply to ]
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"Next thing you'll post is that Brian Mulroney was Canada's greatest prime minister!!.

its like you can read my mind....:-) "



You're not serious Trev? Even those redneck Reformists from Alberta hated the guy. One of the few political issues the easterners can agree with them about.

http://castorblog.com/archives/000327.html
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Re: Greatest aircraft of WW2. [danielito] [ In reply to ]
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I nominate the Sopwith Camel because that's what Snoopy flew in his countless battles with the fiendish Red Baron. Oh wait, is that the wrong World War? ;-)

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: Greatest aircraft of WW2. [ In reply to ]
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I remember an old tech-rep from north american -rockwell , had a story about the P-51's design .The first prototype was built in record time, by and engineer who would look at a piece of sheet metal , just draw large curves /radei ,free hand ,saying there like that . He would by-pass all the loffting -template steps, just amazing.

The allison 1710 V 12 engine was junk , lasting 50- 100 hours in REAL combat. There was a setting on the throttle "war power or emergercey power" it would give you 20 -30 % power power ,But you had to replace the engine .

The first Rolls Royce engines put into P-51 , were better on power output and longer life. One courious Mech. pulled the pan and valve train covers ,as other mechanics gathered round ,they marveled at the hand polished con-rods and internal non cast parts, they could see their refletion in them.

Not all were that good , but I love that story ,for old world craftsmanship. So next time you see a P-51 at an airshow just smile when you see RR on the engine cowling.
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