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Re: Now here's where the US really beats France [direwolf] [ In reply to ]
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"I'm not going to get fully into this issue because it is somewhat boring to debate and completely pointless."
- - Not pointless at all. Now that Russia has ratified Kyoto, it is vital that the US remain strong on this issue.

"There are plenty of scientific reports on both sides of the global warming issue."
- - Not valid ones. The IPCC report, the big smoking gun for the GW crowd is so badly flawed that only the politicians who suck up to the envirowhacks and a few morons give it any credence. The rest are just sheep who haven't bothered to read what's in it. The envirowhacks don't care if it's BS, they just want to shut down progress.

"You choose to believe the ones funded by oil companies and similar interests."
- - Actually, I believe people I know in the field.

"I choose to believe the ones funded by universities and environmental groups."
- - Baaaaahhhhh....

"I will say that this is the first I've heard of global cooling though."
- - OK, so you're a little smarter already. Stick with me, and I'll have you out of the shearing pen in no time. Like I said, I've been around since this nonsense started. I'm smart enough to stop listening to the doomsayers once the world not only fails to end but somehow gets stronger.


Cousin Elwood - Team Over-the-hill Racing
Brought to you by the good folks at Metamucil and Geritol...
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Re: Now here's where the US really beats France [Cousin Elwood] [ In reply to ]
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> "envirowhacks," "morons," "sheep," "Baaaahhhh," "nonsense," "nutjobs."

Remind me - why would I want to get into a discussion with you?

'wolf


__________________________________________________
What a drag it is getting old. -- Stones
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Re: Now here's where the US really beats France [direwolf] [ In reply to ]
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you catch on fast ;-)

------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://pavlov.psyc.queensu.ca/~psyc382/rockgold.html
(Norman Rockwell's "Do Unto Others")
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Re: Now here's where the US really beats France [direwolf] [ In reply to ]
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"Remind me - why would I want to get into a discussion with you?"

I don't know, maybe because you need the education? And don't go gittin' hi 'n' mahtee... your comment about liking clean air and water was just as tasteless. No to mention "You choose to believe the ones funded by oil companies and similar interests."

You want peace, stop shooting.


Cousin Elwood - Team Over-the-hill Racing
Brought to you by the good folks at Metamucil and Geritol...
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Re: Now here's where the US really beats France [Cousin Elwood] [ In reply to ]
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You should try reading some actual science, no one has "completely debunked" any of the science surrounding global climate change. I would love to see what you use to justify this statement You simply can not argue with any credibility that CO2 does not preferentially absorb long wave radiation.

Trying to state that there is "scientific" evidence for and against climate change is ridiculous, it is the equivalent of saying that the flat earth society are geographers of merit.

Try this

http://www.acia.uaf.edu/

it is a link to the US government study of climate change effects in the arctic. This group testified before John McCain's committee in the Senate yesterday and you should probably look at what he had to say as well.
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Re: Now here's where the US really beats France [Richard R] [ In reply to ]
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"Trying to state that there is "scientific" evidence for and against climate change is ridiculous, it is the equivalent of saying that the flat earth society are geographers of merit."

No, it's the equivalent of saying that it rains in the winter and the sun shines in the summer (here in CA)

Save me the trouble of repeating myself by searching the archives. I've gone on at length on the following:

1- Hole in the ozone layer predates the industrial age, and it is now getting smaller. Why? Because ozone is the result of UV radiation, so the "hole" is self regulating.

2- Melting ice caps: Some are melting others are growing, e.g., Greenland's ice cover has thickened by over 300 feet since WWII.

3- Stats used for the IPCC report were cherry picked. Once you take readings across the board, the actual increase in temp since the industrial revolution is less than .5º (BFD)

4- Climate changes are local. While warming trends are reported in some areas (mostly really cold ones, so it ain't such a bad thing) other areas are reporting cooling trends.

5- CO2, much like ozone self regulates. Increases in CO2 result in warmer temps and greater plant growth which lowers temps.

6- The planet has been warmer at various periods in history.

7- Environmentalists keep predicting the end of the world; it keeps not happening!!
a- Mount St Helens was supposed to cause nuclear winter...
b- Saddam's oil fires were supposed to cause nuclear winter...
c- Mount Pinatubo was supposed to cause nuclear winter...

What is thoroughly ridiculous, given the impact of the sun's energy on our climate, is the very suggestion that human activity could possibly affect climate in any global way.


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Last edited by: Cousin Elwood: Nov 17, 04 12:26
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Re: Now here's where the US really beats France [Cousin Elwood] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:


1- Hole in the ozone layer predates the industrial age, and it is now getting smaller. Why? Because ozone is the result of UV radiation, so the "hole" is self regulating. How exactly was the ozone layer measured in the pre-industrial age?

2- Melting ice caps: Some are melting others are growing, e.g., Greenland's ice cover has thickened by over 300 feet since WWII. This is a complete fabrication.

3- Stats used for the IPCC report were cherry picked. Once you take readings across the board, the actual increase in temp since the industrial revolution is less than .5º (BFD) Even .5degrees is a big difference.

4- Climate changes are local. While warming trends are reported in some areas (mostly really cold ones, so it ain't such a bad thing) other areas are reporting cooling trends. True, as predicted by all climate models.

5- CO2, much like ozone self regulates. Increases in CO2 result in warmer temps and greater plant growth which lowers temps. Once again based on a faulty assumption on your part.

6- The planet has been warmer at various periods in history. Yes, during the Mesozoic when there was a higher level of CO2.

7- Environmentalists keep predicting the end of the world; it keeps not happening!!
a- Mount St Helens was supposed to cause nuclear winter...
b- Saddam's oil fires were supposed to cause nuclear winter...
c- Mount Pinatubo was supposed to cause nuclear winter... None of these things were predicted by scientists.

What is thoroughly ridiculous, given the impact of the sun's energy on our climate, is the very suggestion that human activity could possibly affect climate in any global way. How is it ridiculous, when all evidence says it is happening?
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Re: Now here's where the US really beats France [Richard R] [ In reply to ]
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"How exactly was the ozone layer measured in the pre-industrial age?"
- - Same way rainfall and temperatures have been chronicled. Do you know anything about this subject?

" This is a complete fabrication." [Greenland's ice cover has thickened by over 300 feet since WWII.]
- - You really need to do some research before shooting off your mouth (fingers). Google "The Lost Squadron." Stick with me and you won't always be an uninformed sheep.

"Even .5degrees is a big difference."
- - No it isn't. .5º is insignificant - TOTALLY. BTW, [Alt]186 = º

"True, as predicted by all climate models." [other areas are reporting cooling trends]
- - OK, so what's your beef?

"Once again based on a faulty assumption on your part." [Increases in CO2 result in warmer temps and greater plant growth which lowers temps]
- - How can I argue with logic like that?

"Yes, during the Mesozoic when there was a higher level of CO2."
- - Uh huh, and you'll notice that a) mankind was not to blame and b) the planet survived. (Gee, how did they measure CO2 in the Mesozoic period, Rich?)

"None of these things were predicted by scientists."
- - They were predicted by the same scientists who are backing IPCC and Kyoto. They're not climatologists, but then neither is the bulk of the GW crowd.

"How is it ridiculous, when all evidence says it is happening?"
- - ALL? I'm not sure there's even one drop of "evidence" to suggest that GW is happening. Again, you've answered it yourself by accepting that global temps were higher in the Mosazoic period than now, and that they somehow cooled down and the planet didn't catch fire and explode.

Global climate changes constantly in response to changes in conditions. The thing you don't seem to recognize is that it's not a closed system. The major influence, by far, is the sun, and the sun's energy output varies. There is nothing mankind has the ability to do with current technology that is capable of significantly affecting the earth's climate.


Cousin Elwood - Team Over-the-hill Racing
Brought to you by the good folks at Metamucil and Geritol...
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Re: Now here's where the US really beats France [Cousin Elwood] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
"How exactly was the ozone layer measured in the pre-industrial age?"
- - Same way rainfall and temperatures have been chronicled. Do you know anything about this subject? [me] Temperature and to a lesser extent rainfall is measured through proxy records. No such records exist for the hole in the ozone layer.

" This is a complete fabrication." [Greenland's ice cover has thickened by over 300 feet since WWII.]
- - You really need to do some research before shooting off your mouth (fingers). Google "The Lost Squadron." Stick with me and you won't always be an uninformed sheep. [me] Glaciers are constantly moving somewhat like rivers with ice adding in the accumulation zones and lost in the ablation zones. To site the burial of an airplane as evidence of net accumulation shows an ignorance of basic glaciology.

"Even .5degrees is a big difference."
- - No it isn't. .5º is insignificant - TOTALLY. BTW, [Alt]186 = º [me] statistically it is.

"True, as predicted by all climate models." [other areas are reporting cooling trends]
- - OK, so what's your beef? [me] hence you can't use that as evidence against global warming

"Once again based on a faulty assumption on your part." [Increases in CO2 result in warmer temps and greater plant growth which lowers temps]
- - How can I argue with logic like that? [me] you can't argue with the fact that co2 is not a limiting factor for plant growth

"Yes, during the Mesozoic when there was a higher level of CO2."
- - Uh huh, and you'll notice that a) mankind was not to blame and b) the planet survived. (Gee, how did they measure CO2 in the Mesozoic period, Rich?) [me] co2 levels can be measured through proxy records, and while the "planet" survived it is questionable whether man would or not

"None of these things were predicted by scientists."
- - They were predicted by the same scientists who are backing IPCC and Kyoto. They're not climatologists, but then neither is the bulk of the GW crowd. [me] Thankfully not only climatologists can see the evidence, otherwise nothing would get done.

"How is it ridiculous, when all evidence says it is happening?"
- - ALL? I'm not sure there's even one drop of "evidence" to suggest that GW is happening. Again, you've answered it yourself by accepting that global temps were higher in the Mosazoic period than now, and that they somehow cooled down and the planet didn't catch fire and explode. [me] Did you even open the link I posted to the Arctic impact study? Have you read Nature or Science in the past 5 years? Any climatology or geology journals? The evidence in peer reviewed science is overwhelming that this is a real issue. The evidence in non-reviewed websites may point against it, I leave you to judge which to believe.

Global climate changes constantly in response to changes in conditions. [True]The thing you don't seem to recognize is that it's not a closed system. [Meaningless] The major influence, by far, is the sun, and the sun's energy output varies. [How so?] There is nothing mankind has the ability to do with current technology that is capable of significantly affecting the earth's climate. [Look at the evidence]
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Re: Now here's where the US really beats France [Richard R] [ In reply to ]
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"No such records exist for the hole in the ozone layer."
- - No such records exist for temp or rainfall either. It's all done by extrapolations.

"To site the burial of an airplane as evidence of net accumulation shows an ignorance of basic glaciology."
- - To blame it on glaciers is to do the same.

"statistically it is [5º insignificant]
- - No it isn't. a variation of .5º over 100 years is totally insignificant, and could even be explained by measuring systems. Even if it's a trend, then your great-great-great grandchildren are still safe. Also, try proving that humans caused it!! If it's not a trend, then maybe it will be colder in 100 years... maybe A LOT colder.

"hence you can't use that as evidence against global warming"
- - Lame, dude, really lame.

"you can't argue with the fact that co2 is not a limiting factor for plant growth"
- - I never tried to say that it was.

"co2 levels can be measured through proxy records, and while the "planet" survived it is questionable whether man would or not"
- - ass-u-ming that CO2 concentrations rise significantly, and that O2 concentrations suffer dramatically as a result, then perhaps we're in trouble. Problem with that theory is that all these gases mutate and cycle, and the quantity of oxygen remains constant. The universe knows it's balances, and will stabilize at the proper levels, as it has for billions of years. Just like when CO2 concentrations were higher in the mesazoic...
"Thankfully not only climatologists can see the evidence, otherwise nothing would get done."
- - Sadly morons like Al Gore are pressing to make changes in systems they don't understand, at the expense of all of us.

"Did you even open the link I posted to the Arctic impact study? Have you read Nature or Science in the past 5 years? Any climatology or geology journals? The evidence in peer reviewed science is overwhelming that this is a real issue. The evidence in non-reviewed websites may point against it, I leave you to judge which to believe."
- - Peer reviewed??? You linked me to an environmental group with an agenda. As you noted, people other than climatologists are involved in this BUSINESS of GW.

"[How so?]"
- - The sun's energy ouput varies with solar flares. "[Look at the evidence]"
- - There is none. The climate changes whether we're here or not. Our paltry contributions are laughable. It's like leaving your door open in the winter to heat the neighborhood.


Cousin Elwood - Team Over-the-hill Racing
Brought to you by the good folks at Metamucil and Geritol...
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Re: Now here's where the US really beats France [Cousin Elwood] [ In reply to ]
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Obviously you have not read the link I gave you or you would see that it is a study from the US government (hardly an "environmental group with an agenda) and that each chapter represents a peer reviewed paper which is either published or in publication.
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