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Re: Things going from bad to worse [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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"Flattening cities and killing civilians is the perfect way to lose an insurgency."
- - Well, it can't be worse than what we're doing. American lives should have priority. The house by house plan is getting more of ours killed to avoid killing a few of theirs.

"The only way to win is to make the insurgents look worse than the alternaive, namely, us. Even then, it takes time to win public support so that they will stop supporting insurgents, even to the point of helping us aginst them."
- - Except that these insurgents are imported. They're from out of town as much as we are. The only edge they've got is that their muslims. The fact that the locals are afraid of them doesn't mean they love them.


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Re: Things going from bad to worse [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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"1- This has been the fastest and most effective war in history
Don't want to bust your bubble, but the clock on this war hasn't stopped ticking yet.
- - Sorry, but we're fighting terrorists. The Iraqis surrendered. Assuming we take two more years, it'll still be faster than Korea, Nam or WWII.

We had occupation forces in Germany and Japan for twenty years.
Carrying out counter-insurgency warfare? No. Not comparable situations.
- - Really? Well neither are the casualty numbers. How many Americans died in WWII? How long will we have to continue in the Iraqi "quagmire" to reach that body count? 300 years?

We were greeted as liberators
- - A great many Iraqis have expressed their gratitude for the chance to start over without Hussein. Again, the terrorists are nearly all imported.


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Re: Things going from bad to worse [rb5980] [ In reply to ]
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"Uhhh. Ok... You got anymore of that stuff you're smokin'?"

Haven't partaken since the early '70s, how about you? I think you need to check for data somewhere besides CNN...

How can you trust a network that says it's the most trusted name in television news, and yet they're suckin' hind tit in the ratings?


Cousin Elwood - Team Over-the-hill Racing
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Re: Things going from bad to worse [Cousin Elwood] [ In reply to ]
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"Well, it can't be worse than what we're doing. American lives should have priority. The house by house plan is getting more of ours killed to avoid killing a few of theirs."

It can be worse. We can lose. While I agree we should not toss away American lives, we are going slowly and carefully because civilian lives are worth saving.

"Except that these insurgents are imported. "

Not really. The guys I talk to coming back from Iraq say that the majority of the insurgents appear to be Iraqi, in particular, old Republican Guardsmen.

"The fact that the locals are afraid of them doesn't mean they love them."

I didn't say the public does love them. However, we need to win the confidence of the Iraqis both in being able to protect them, and by showing them that the insurgents and the terrorists are harming them more than we are.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: Things going from bad to worse [Cousin Elwood] [ In reply to ]
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"Sorry, but we're fighting terrorists. The Iraqis surrendered. Assuming we take two more years, it'll still be faster than Korea, Nam or WWII. "

Again, not true.

"Really? Well neither are the casualty numbers. How many Americans died in WWII? How long will we have to continue in the Iraqi "quagmire" to reach that body count? 300 years? "

There's no comparison between this war and WWII.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: Things going from bad to worse [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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"Again, not true."
- - Flunk math, Commander? We weren't out of Korea or Nam in less than three...

"There's no comparison between this war and WWII."
- - No there isn't. Nor is there any basis to compare it with any other war we've ever seen. That was my point.

I agree that we're not doing everything right, but we're also not doing everything wrong. The "insurgents" (are you sure al Sadre is a local boy? I coulda swore he was Iranian.) are making enemies in every nation in the world. I don't think the run-of-the-mill Iraqi is so dumb that they can't see that these jokers need to be shooed.


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Re: Things going from bad to worse [Cousin Elwood] [ In reply to ]
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I don't have cable, so I don't have CNN.

Those greeters sure have a funny way of showing it.
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Re: Things going from bad to worse [Cousin Elwood] [ In reply to ]
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"Again, not true."
- - Flunk math, Commander? We weren't out of Korea or Nam in less than three..."

No, I didn't flunk math, and I don't need your condescension. I was saying that you were wrong again about us fighting mostly terrorists.

"are you sure al Sadre is a local boy? I coulda swore he was Iranian."

When did I say al Sadr was local? He is playing a relatively minor part. He just gets a lot of press.

Slowguy

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Re: Things going from bad to worse [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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"No, I didn't flunk math, and I don't need your condescension. I was saying that you were wrong again about us fighting mostly terrorists."
- - OK, but you're "wrong" was position after you quoted me saying our guys had done their job quickly.

"When did I say al Sadr was local? He is playing a relatively minor part. He just gets a lot of press."
- - So does Zarqawi. My point was that a lot of the "insurgency" is imported terrorists. The many terrorist organizations have picked Iraq as a place to confont America. I won't give Bush credit for knowing that would happen, but it would have been a stroke of genius, fighting them there instead of here. Even the blind squirrel finds the occasional acorn...

It's a damned shame that 1000+ of our boys have been killed in this thing, but let's try to keep things in perspective, shall we. As wars go, the body count in this one is miniscule. more people have died from gun violence HERE than there, in the past year. Far more people have died on our highways, and last week five construction workers died a few blocks from me because some idiot didn't read a blueprint properly and they took a backhoe to a 10" pipe carrying jet fuel.

War is hell. Maybe the Islamofascists shouldn't have started one.


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Re: Things going from bad to worse [Casey] [ In reply to ]
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"They are just not elated to have a foreign army on their soil and our side just can't seem to understand that."
- - They were also reticent to celebrate before they saw who was going to be in power next, and how that might affect them. If Saddam had retained power, anyone celebrating his downfall would be marked for a brief unhappy future.

"Yes there are people happy that Saddam is gone but they do not want a foreign army dictating their policy."
- - Exactly, which is why we aren't doing that.


Cousin Elwood - Team Over-the-hill Racing
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Re: Things going from bad to worse [Cousin Elwood] [ In reply to ]
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"OK, but you're "wrong" was position after you quoted me saying our guys had done their job quickly. "

Well, actually it was in response to you saying we were fighting terrorists. The rest was just cut in paste along with the terrorist statement.

"My point was that a lot of the "insurgency" is imported terrorists"

There's a big difference between saying some, or even a lot is terrorists and what you said which was that the people we are fighting in Iraq are terrorists and the insurgents are terrorirts.

As for the body count, I agree it is less than a lot of other wars we've fought. however, it damn well should be less than those other wars. We're better at this, our enemies are considerably worse than they used to be in comparison, and high body count becomes less and less acceptable as the disparity between us and the bad guys increases.

"Islamofacists"

Can someone tell me what the hell this word means? Facism has to do with nationalism and dictatorial rule. Islamists want pan-Arabism and the restoration of the Caliphate. How are the two related?

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: Things going from bad to worse [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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Marines Finding Surrendering Fighters
Associated Press | Sat, Nov. 13, 2004 | EDWARD HARRIS


FALLUJAH, Iraq - U.S. Marines charged up the stairs in one of Fallujah's grandest buildings Saturday, seeking the high ground in their battle with insurgents. There, they found three foreign men lying in wait.



But they were unarmed, elderly and infirm - three shaken and hungry Egyptians, kneeling on the floor, waving a white sheet.



One wore a turban, had sallow skin and a distended belly. He held out a note in English - a message from Marines who had swept through earlier. It said the foreigners were not suspected combatants, unlike many in Fallujah.



"Tell them we'll get them out for medical treatment. Not now, but soon they'll have a ride to the rear," Lt. Owen Boyce, 24, of Simsbury, Conn., told a translator. "Tell them we'll take care of them. But we've got a casualty and that's the priority."



The three Egyptians were traveling to Baghdad for medical care when the were caught up in the Fallujah fighting.



The earlier Marine patrol had left rations for the three, but the Egyptians apparently had not understood it was food, or how to open the thick brown plastic pouches. The men had not eaten for days.



Boyce and his squad kneeled with the men, splitting open the packs of wheat bread, processed cheese and chocolate milkshakes, which the Egyptians devoured with trembling hands.



"It's pretty clear these guys aren't fighters," Boyce said as the Egyptians pressed cheap plastic lighters, gifts of gratitude, into his hands.



The gentle treatment for the Egyptians after a week of intense urban combat to retake the city from Islamic militants was not the norm as U.S. forces combed the city for holdout insurgents.



Men of fighting age are blindfolded, handcuffed and led away for interrogation. The Marines say such measures are necessary because it is impossible to tell friend from foe.



"The majority are fighters who have holed up and want to attack us from the rear," said Gunnery Sgt. Brett Turek, 36, of Hinsdale, Ill., serving with the 3rd Battalion, 5th Marines.



"We've also found legitimate guys who were taking care of their property who were just in a bad place at a bad time."



Marines in one northern neighborhood said they also liberated two hostages, a Syrian and two Iraqis. So far there has been no sign of foreign hostages, including British aid worker Margaret Hassan or Lebanese-American Dean Sadek.



Each day, Marines smashing their way through a city that was once home to 300,000 people are finding men of military age hiding in Fallujah's low houses and few apartment buildings, near loaded weapons.



Marines use plastic bands called flexcuffs on the detainees' wrists, wrap cloth around their eyes and lead them out into streets filled with broken glass, shrapnel and concrete shattered by bullets or bombs.



Marines show little patience with surrendering fighters and suspect that many of the men have given up, hoping to escape to fight another day.



As many as 90 percent of people found in Fallujah since the fighting began are believed to be insurgents and are treated as prisoners - sent to the rear for questioning. Friday night, for example, Marines led about 40 detainees out of a command post, pushing the barefoot men who winced as they walked across the rubble.



Marines have found suspected fighters from Syria, Jordan, Egypt and Sudan, a Marine officer said on condition of anonymity. They also have captured men in Iraqi police and military uniforms.



"These are the ones shooting at us, aside from the Iraqi mujahedeen," the officer said.



Before Marines struck deep into Fallujah this week, U.S. officers estimated between 50,000 and 60,000 civilians remained in the city. But in the city's northern quarters, reputed to be a rebel stronghold, few were seen.



Officials hope they can clear Fallujah and restore security to open the way for national elections in January.
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Re: Things going from bad to worse [Cousin Elwood] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
All that needs to occur for evil to thrive is for good men to do nothing. [I love that saying because it's absolutely true]

It's a favorite of mine as well, Edmund Burke. Here's the exact quote:
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.

"At some point, everyone is going to get sick of the terrorists. Their days are numbered. They've seen their peak."
- - One would hope. They've indiscriminately attacked foreigners from all over the globe. It's almost as if they're daring the rest of the world to say "enough" and come get them.
You ever see the movie Boondock Saints??
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Re: Things going from bad to worse [SemperTri] [ In reply to ]
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"At some point, everyone is going to get sick of the terrorists. Their days are numbered. They've seen their peak."
- - One would hope. They've indiscriminately attacked foreigners from all over the globe. It's almost as if they're daring the rest of the world to say "enough" and come get them.
[/reply]

The citizens of Fallujah have grown disenchanted with Zarqwai's terror. Hannah Allam documents the buyer's remorse of the residents of Fallujah and the indigenous Iraqi insurgents. Zarqawi attempted to instill Taliban-like atmosphere in Fallujah, much to the dismay of the residents. It seems their zeal in murdering innocents and their brand of Islam was too much for the locals to countenance.
Last week, with U.S. troops battling their way through the Sunni Muslim stronghold, several Fallujah residents said trusting the foreigners who turned the locals' humble stand against foreign occupation into a sophisticated terror campaign had been a grave mistake.

Once admired as comrades in an anti-American struggle, foreign fighters now draw blamed for U.S. missiles flattening homes and turning Iraq's City of Mosques into a killing field. The foreigners' promises of protection went unfulfilled, angry residents said, as they moved on to other outposts and left residents to face a superpower alone.

[:]

Fallujah residents, most of them now displaced by the fighting, said hundreds of non-Iraqi Arabs had been in the city before the U.S. offensive began Monday. But, they added, the ties of brotherhood had mostly unraveled and the remaining foreign fighters had tried to intimidate residents into staying as human shields.

A rebel-allied cleric who goes by the name Sheik Rafaa said Iraqi rebels were so infuriated by the disappearance of their foreign allies that one cell had "executed 20 Arab fighters because they left an area they promised to defend."

Other residents said foreign militants wore out their welcome months ago, when they imposed a Taliban-like interpretation of Islamic law that included public floggings for residents accused of drinking alcohol or refusing to grow beards. Women who failed to cover their hair or remove their makeup were subjected to public humiliation. Those accused of spying for Americans were executed on the spot, residents said.

When they swept into Fallujah from Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Egypt and North Africa, the Arab fighters told wary residents that God favors believers who give up their homes and travel to defend Islam.

[:]

But then came the wave of foreign hostage-takings, many ending with gruesome beheadings broadcast for the world to see. Al-Zarqawi also claimed responsibility for massive bombings that spilled the blood of hundreds of innocent Iraqis.

Aghast, Fallujah residents began drawing distinctions between their own fighters, who favored mainly military and police targets, and foreigners encouraged by the fear they inspired through spectacular attacks.




Zarqawi's brutality towards civilians and his flight from the battlefield have not earned him the respect of the indigenous Iraqi insurgents (Zarqawi may even have flip-flopped on his vow to "Fight to the Death"). It will be interesting to see if the citizens of other Iraqi towns and cities are eager to host his network after the tyranny and abject failure in Fallujah. Zarqawi's al Qaeda in Iraq is looking like a weak horse at the moment, and as the residents of Fallujah have learned, cooperating with this loser comes at a great cost.
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