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Home > Forum > Triathlon Forum > Physiology/Fitness Differences between Swim, Run and Cycle

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Re: Physiology/Fitness Differences between Swim, Run and Cycle [ticoachterry] [ In reply to ]
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brentl
Jun 10, 09 12:01
Post #76 of 84 (2213 views)
terry

i made that comment because you felt compelled to post your resume. I was just wondering what happened when you actually started coaching instead of selling clinics, videos, and books and visiting coaches for a day or two. i have never posted this question on any internet forum previously so i have no idea where that comment comes from.
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Re: Physiology/Fitness Differences between Swim, Run and Cycle [ticoachterry] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
FLA Jill
Jun 10, 09 12:04
Post #77 of 84 (2212 views)
There's a pretty long list of big name swimmers who never got super serious about the sport until high school, or in the case of Ed Moses, had effectively one summer league season before college.

I wish I'd saved a copy of the long interview that Swimming World had on their site with Bob Bowman because he had a lot of good stuff to say about how it was best to take it easy and technique-focused with the elementary set and then start ramping it up when he felt like a swimmer was starting to hit certain physical and mental maturity levels, which was typically in the 12-14 year old range for girls and a little older than that for boys.

And this from a head coach of a team well known for producing 15 year old Olympians. But then Bowman's a lot better with long term planning than just about anyone else in the game.
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Re: Physiology/Fitness Differences between Swim, Run and Cycle [FLA Jill] [ In reply to ]
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daveinmammoth
Jun 10, 09 13:39
Post #78 of 84 (2178 views)
My understanding is that essentially all elite swimmers swim opposite arm for the 50/100 and most for the 200. I think most of the swimmers/coaches don't know they are doing it - or at least didn't a few years ago....(I got that from reading some ASCA stuff).

All swim front quadrant in the 400 and up.

Front quad became more well-known via the great Aussies - Hacket/Thorpe....and is a true "swimming" phenom and has nothing to do with triathlon. The rest of the list are "gimmicky"/tri-popular things. Most triathletes have no clue what front quadrant swimming is....

I think front quad is due to:

1) Entry position and reach.
2) The accleration of the pull so the 2nd half is faster
3) The quick recovery.

With those 3 - one hand is always in front of the head.

I teach my kids that there are 2 style of free - "distance" and "sprint"....

Dave
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Re: Physiology/Fitness Differences between Swim, Run and Cycle [ticoachterry] [ In reply to ]
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Andrew Coggan
Jun 10, 09 14:44
Post #79 of 84 (2146 views)
In Reply To:
If you disagree with anything I've posted, take it up with Mike Joyner and Jack Daniels, as I presume they won't be the lighting rods I've proven to be . . . when they say the exact same things I've said.

That's funny...I don't recall either of them ever making any claims re. the role of myelin in motor learning. ;-)
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Re: Physiology/Fitness Differences between Swim, Run and Cycle [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]
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nproximos
Jun 10, 09 15:17
Post #80 of 84 (2113 views)
isnt it just a bunch of learned reflexes?

dont all the electral signals at the same speed? i cant remember lol
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Re: Physiology/Fitness Differences between Swim, Run and Cycle [nproximos] [ In reply to ]
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Devlin
Jun 10, 09 17:01
Post #81 of 84 (2083 views)
In Reply To:
isnt it just a bunch of learned reflexes?

dont all the electral signals at the same speed? i cant remember lol
You can't learn a reflex. A repeated movement, such as a martial arts block can be trained to be very close to reflex speed, but will never get there. A reflex is "hardwired" from birth, with a direct signal path to the brain. Other movements have to develop their own paths.

I forget the mechanism, I'll have to hit up my books again, but you can "prewire" (really bad term, but I'm groping a bit here) repetitive motions so that they are faster/second nature. Again, I don't remember the mechanism for it, I'd bet that TC does since her classes are a lot fresher than mine.

John

Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |
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Re: Physiology/Fitness Differences between Swim, Run and Cycle [Devlin] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Frank Day
Jun 10, 09 18:06
Post #82 of 84 (2057 views)
In Reply To:
In Reply To:
isnt it just a bunch of learned reflexes?

dont all the electral signals at the same speed? i cant remember lol
You can't learn a reflex. A repeated movement, such as a martial arts block can be trained to be very close to reflex speed, but will never get there. A reflex is "hardwired" from birth, with a direct signal path to the brain. Other movements have to develop their own paths.

I forget the mechanism, I'll have to hit up my books again, but you can "prewire" (really bad term, but I'm groping a bit here) repetitive motions so that they are faster/second nature. Again, I don't remember the mechanism for it, I'd bet that TC does since her classes are a lot fresher than mine.

John
Most reflexes never get to the brain, they are spinal reflexes. Walking, running and pedaling, and other repetitive tasks also never gets to the thinking brain, me thinks, and they are learned but, I agree, should not be called reflexes although they get called such in the lay literature. Reflexive behavior does not involve thinking.
--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks
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Re: Physiology/Fitness Differences between Swim, Run and Cycle [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Devlin
Jun 10, 09 18:33
Post #83 of 84 (2040 views)
In Reply To:
In Reply To:
In Reply To:
isnt it just a bunch of learned reflexes?

dont all the electral signals at the same speed? i cant remember lol
You can't learn a reflex. A repeated movement, such as a martial arts block can be trained to be very close to reflex speed, but will never get there. A reflex is "hardwired" from birth, with a direct signal path to the brain. Other movements have to develop their own paths.

I forget the mechanism, I'll have to hit up my books again, but you can "prewire" (really bad term, but I'm groping a bit here) repetitive motions so that they are faster/second nature. Again, I don't remember the mechanism for it, I'd bet that TC does since her classes are a lot fresher than mine.

John
Most reflexes never get to the brain, they are spinal reflexes. Walking, running and pedaling, and other repetitive tasks also never gets to the thinking brain, me thinks, and they are learned but, I agree, should not be called reflexes although they get called such in the lay literature. Reflexive behavior does not involve thinking.
You could very well be right, but for some reason I thought they (reflexes) made it to the lower part of the brainstem. Repetitive tasks such as walking would almost have to be connected to the thinking brain, otherwise you couldn't change your stride, etc., and you aren't born knowing, you have to learn it, which would connote a thinking connection, no?

And you are right on the lay literature, they call a lot of things "reflexive" that actually are not. ;)

John

Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |
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Re: Physiology/Fitness Differences between Swim, Run and Cycle [daveinmammoth] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
ericmulk
Sep 20, 17 20:32
Post #84 of 84 (1131 views)
daveinmammoth wrote:
My understanding is that essentially all elite swimmers swim opposite arm for the 50/100 and most for the 200. I think most of the swimmers/coaches don't know they are doing it - or at least didn't a few years ago....(I got that from reading some ASCA stuff).
All swim front quadrant in the 400 and up.
Front quad became more well-known via the great Aussies - Hacket/Thorpe....and is a true "swimming" phenom and has nothing to do with triathlon. The rest of the list are "gimmicky"/tri-popular things. Most triathletes have no clue what front quadrant swimming is....
I think front quad is due to:
1) Entry position and reach.
2) The accleration of the pull so the 2nd half is faster
3) The quick recovery.
With those 3 - one hand is always in front of the head.
I teach my kids that there are 2 style of free - "distance" and "sprint"....
Dave

Dredging up another classic blast from the past, this thread was referenced on the recycled Terry Laughlin thread discussed the last few days.

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...e_on_BT_P2831900-21/

For your reading enjoyment, this one is much shorter than the one cited above. In combo, these two threads offer lots of food for thought on swimming.

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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