Login required to started new threads

Login required to post replies

Prev Next
Re: Is the Bible the sole source of authority for Christians? [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
absent writings from christ himself, physical evidence of his bones, his living space, his toilet seat, etc,

How would any of that convince anyone? How would you know Christ himself wrote the documents, and they weren't forgeries? How would you know they were Christ's bones, and not some random skeleton?

It's nonsense.








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
Last edited by: vitus979: Oct 24, 04 13:39
Quote Reply
Re: Is the Bible the sole source of authority for Christians? [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
"How would any of that convince anyone? How would you know Christ himself wrote the documents, and they weren't forgeries? How would you know they were Christ's bones, and not some random skeleton?

It's nonsense."

As I said, I don't know that real proof can be produced now. Since that is exactly my argument, I guess I don't have to say much more. As for how you tell the difference, you do it the same way people analyze historical evidence all the time. The same way the Jesus box was dismissed as a fake. You collect evidence, you date it to the right time period, you place it in the proper historical context, you find it where Jesus was supposed to have been, you show that whatever it is was made by tools or in a language used in Jesus time, etc. It's not like archeology is a new science.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
Quote Reply
Re: Is the Bible the sole source of authority for Christians? [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
As I said, I don't know that real proof can be produced now.

Fascinating argument for a historian. You're basically saying we can't know any historical facts but that which we witness ourselves, with our own eyes. Once a few generations pass, it's all relative.








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
Quote Reply
Re: Is the Bible the sole source of authority for Christians? [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
"You're basically saying we can't know any historical facts but that which we witness ourselves, with our own eyes."

Well since you've devolved into completely making up an argument for me that is not what I said, I'll just stop. You've got your mind made up, and as usual in any argument involving religious belief, reason plays no part in your argument. Have a nice Sabbath.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
Quote Reply
Re: Is the Bible the sole source of authority for Christians? [jhc] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
"Believing in Jesus does not mean believing doctrines about him," Borg writes. "Rather, it means to give one's heart, one's self at its deepest level, to . . . the living Lord."

http://www.amazon.com/.../0060609176?v=glance
Quote Reply
Re: Is the Bible the sole source of authority for Christians? [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
 as usual in any argument involving religious belief, reason plays no part in your argument.

Great, except the existence of Jesus of Nazareth isn't itself religion, it's history. The universal conclusion of scholars and historians, be they ancient or modern, Catholic, Protestant, or atheist, is that Jesus was a real, historical figure. If you know of a historian who argues otherwise- that Jesus was a hoax, a myth, or even that we can't be sure the man ever actually lived as a matter of historic fact, please let me know.








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
Quote Reply
Re: Is the Bible the sole source of authority for Christians? [jhc] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
There is no intimation in the Scriptures that the words of our Saviour addressed to Simon Peter made him ruler and head of the church.

Again, Catholic defense of the papacy doesn't rest solely on Scripture. Nevertheless, the verse which Rev. Prior misconstrues is not the only one in the Bible that reflects Peter's primacy among the Apostles.

It was Peter who took charge in electing Matthias to replace Judas. (Acts 1:15-22)

It was Peter who received the first converts- Gentile and Jew into the Church. (Acts 2:14-41, Acts 10:5)

It was Peter who worked the first miracle. (Acts 3:1-8)

It was Peter who imposed the first ecclesiastical punishment. (Acts 5:1-10)

It was Peter who excommunicated the first heretic. (Acts 8:9-24)

It was Peter who made the first apostolic visits to the churches. (Acts 9:32)

It was Peter who made the first dogmatic decision. (Acts 15:5-11)

And when Paul was about to begin his ministry, he considered it necessary to obtain Peter's approval. (Galatians 1:18)



As for St. Peter never having been in Rome, I think that's another matter of historical record. His tomb was discovered there in 1915. And none writing from the early days of the Church dispute it- even Tertullian, who surely would have.








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
Quote Reply
Re: Is the Bible the sole source of authority for Christians? [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Go ahead and type "did Christ exist" into Google and see how "universal" your opinion on this is. And before you just reply that all these people are crackpots, I'll just say that the very existence of debate on both sides of this issue is proof that there is not universal acceptance of your views. Yes, those who don't believe Christ is a historical figure are probably not Christian so you can leave out that lame argument. Yes, no one who you will accept will argue that he didn't exist, because you've already shown that you will only accept the arguments of people who believe basically what you believe. As I said, there is not any scientific proof of his existence. Does that mean he didn't live? Absolutely not. Does it mean you can't prove scientifically that he did live? Yes, that's what it means.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
Quote Reply
Re: Is the Bible the sole source of authority for Christians? [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Unfortunately your myopic approach to the issue at hand is making this topic futile for you.

You are obviously inserting another agenda into this argument and are not willing to accept fact as fact.

There is probably no person on this Earth who will be able to convince you of the fact that Christ did exist.

You should spend your time on another topic since you're unable to grasp the evidence presented to you.
Quote Reply
Re: Is the Bible the sole source of authority for Christians? [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Go ahead and type "did Christ exist" into Google and see how "universal" your opinion on this is.

Sure, right after I type in "Did the Holocaust happen."

I'll just say that the very existence of debate on both sides of this issue is proof that there is not universal acceptance of your views.

I said there is universal acceptance of Jesus as a historical figure among scholars and historians. And if you can find a serious historian who argues otherwise, go ahead and prove me wrong.

those who don't believe Christ is a historical figure are probably not Christian

Like I said, it doesn't matter if they're Catholic, Protestant, pagan, or atheist. It isn't a matter of religion.

no one who you will accept will argue that he didn't exist, because you've already shown that you will only accept the arguments of people who believe basically what you believe.

Not true. Tell me the name of a real historian who argues that Jesus of Nazareth might not have existed at all, and I'll check it out. Scout's honor.








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
Last edited by: vitus979: Oct 24, 04 16:46
Quote Reply
Re: Is the Bible the sole source of authority for Christians? [Brian286] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
slowguy is a believer. Why are you busting his chops?

customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.
Last edited by: Mr. Tibbs: Oct 24, 04 16:45
Quote Reply
Re: Is the Bible the sole source of authority for Christians? [Brian286] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Once again you demonstrate your ability to log on and type on a keyboard without adding to the discussion. Bravo, you and 1000 trained monkeys might someday write a masterpiece.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
Quote Reply
Re: Is the Bible the sole source of authority for Christians? [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Here's one decent article with a fair amount of documentation and support. Don't let the name of the website turn you off.

http://www.nobeliefs.com/exist.htm

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
Quote Reply
Re: Is the Bible the sole source of authority for Christians? [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
You finally are able to muster the strength and aptitude to put some effort into this conversation by citing "documentation" that supports your side of the issue.

Unfortunately the source is a biased one that doesn't stand up to scrutiny and is agenda based.

A nice try though.
Quote Reply
Re: Is the Bible the sole source of authority for Christians? [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Vitus,

Getting away from parsing scripture, here's is what I have never understood about papal primacy. Let's assume for the moment that Christ said that Peter is supposed to run things on earth after Christ is raised from the dead and ascendeth into heaven. Why does this mean that someone that claims to be Peter's successor almost 2000 years later get to run things? You did, after all, have 3 or 4 popes at one time, and, didn't the entire papal machinery move to France for over 100 years?
Quote Reply
Re: Is the Bible the sole source of authority for Christians? [Brian286] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Brian, shut your hole. Have you added one thing to this discussion besides your pissy attitude? I've been having this discussion with vitus for awhile without your help, thank you very much. You can keep your crap to yourself. I really could give two shits whether or not you like my reference or not. My reference doesn't stand up to what scrutiny? Yours? Your scrutiny isn't worth a damn. Go find someone else to argue with. It seems to be the only thing you come here for.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
Quote Reply
Re: Is the Bible the sole source of authority for Christians? [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Yes I have. I've cited numerous sources and references applicable to the topic at hand.

This is the first time you've cited anything to support your side of the argument.

Whether this is the first or 100th time you've had this discussion with vitus on this topic isn't relevent.

It's a public forum. Get used to others entering the thread.
Quote Reply
Re: Is the Bible the sole source of authority for Christians? [Brian286] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Moron, you posted 7 times on this thread, and in exactly 1 of them, you made any kind of argument, which basically amounted to (It says so in the Bible, and since more than one person contributed to the bible, it must be true." You offered exactly 0 references to back up your opinion. I have no problem with people entering the thread, but if they're going to do so, I would prefer they don't waste my time insulting me without making any argument. Either you're too stupid to realize what you wrote earlier in this thread, or you're just a liar with a bad attitude. Either way, your streak of failing to contribute anything meaningful to the forum is still going strong. Way to go!

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
Quote Reply
Re: Is the Bible the sole source of authority for Christians? [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I'll attribute your bitter post to frustration with comprehending and discussing the topic at hand.

Resorting to words such as "moron" and "shut your hole" only shows that have given up on the subject and have nothing more to add.
Quote Reply
Re: Is the Bible the sole source of authority for Christians? [Brian286] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
"I'll attribute your bitter post to frustration with comprehending and discussing the topic at hand.

Resorting to words such as "moron" and "shut your hole" only shows that have given up on the subject and have nothing more to add."

Brian, this is my discussion with vitus. I think I comprehend the substance of my discussion. My resorting to the words "moron" and "shut your hole" only shows that I have long ago given up on carrying out a discussion with you, since you refuse to contribute anything but bile. If you have an opinion on the matter at hand, or a constructive criticism of the reference I gave, feel free. However, just the fact that you tell me I'm "myopic" or my argument is "weak" doesn't make it so. Come up with something better, or go waste someone else's time.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
Quote Reply
Re: Is the Bible the sole source of authority for Christians? [CTL] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Why does this mean that someone that claims to be Peter's successor almost 2000 years later get to run things?

Because otherwise you have to assume that Jesus left the Church with no way to carry on after Peter's death. You're in effect saying that Jesus thought it necessary to have a heirarchy in place for one lifetime, but for some reason after that there'd be no need for an authority within the Church.

The evidence is that the early Christians accepted the successors of St. Peter as authoritative.








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
Quote Reply
Re: Is the Bible the sole source of authority for Christians? [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Holy be Jesus! Apparently you guys have had Jesus on your mind just like I did while riding my bike today. Do you guys find time to workout in between posting? It was a magnificent workout, I was able to consolidate and further clarify to myself what Jesus means to me. I'll give you another brief vision of what he is to me. I would sincerely like to hear from you folks, that are clearly passionate about the guy, what he means to you, not just what it says about him in the Bible, or what your pastor tells you.

Much of my upbringing was done in the presence where the name of Jesus was oft repeated, and every Friday we would go into a great big chapel with huge ceilings, and listen to somebody teach us about the Bible while a mock Jesus hung on a cross looking at us all from about 20 feet in the air. You couldn't miss him, and as a young child I was often to be totally mesmerized. The classes of the school were laid out in a circle in a hallway that went around the main chapel. I recall one time while in about the fifth grade being excused to use the restroom and instead sneaking into the chapel. It was pretty surreal to be alone with Jesus in this chapel with a capacity for 500+ people. It was totally dark, except for the light on Jesus. One time I kind of got stuck in the moment just staring, totally electrified, and got in trouble when I came back to class because it was obvious I wasn't taking a pee for ten minutes.

Anyhow, since then my vision of what Jesus represents to me has certainly evolved. The photograph I now feel best represents the Christ, and that of my Self, is the one below. This as opposed to that of a white male with a cool beard and flowing hair that appears to be in his early adulthood. I'm not here to push my belief on any of you, nor do I expect I could if I tried! The photo was produced through the entheogenic lens of Alex Grey. The luminal field around the physical body is shaped in the form of an eye. At the center of the eye runs a pole of light, through the chakras. My opinion is that seeing with "thine single eye" is akin to having this pole of luminosity fully and evenly lit, and knowing such. That being said, you'll have a better understanding why I believe Jesus was indeed a pacifist. Jesus often talked about light and darkness, and I couldn't imagine him killing somebody to try to cast out their darkness, either in agression or self-defense. Darkness can not be killed, nor can it be filled with light by killing the vessel that is cloacked in it. Jesus was of the light, which is why I believe it's possible he did project his image to be walking on water as told in the Bible. I'll stop now as I have a feeling that once again I'm not connecting with anybody. Be gentle.


Quote Reply
Re: Is the Bible the sole source of authority for Christians? [JoeMWiley] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I'll say this for you, Joe- nobody can say you aren't heterodox! ;)








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
Quote Reply

Prev Next