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Re: firstly triathletes are slowat running period [TriBriGuy] [ In reply to ]
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First, it would take more than a "few months" to build elite marathon speed and fitness. I understand that it would take more than a few months of dedicated training to run the best time possible(I think 7-8 years is a bit extreme, not to mention wouldn't he be almost 40 by then?) but given that we're talking about professional triathletes here, I figured that anything more than a "few months" would be out of the question. Second, I'd say with a true dedicated effort, he'd be in the 2:15-2:25 region easily on a good course. That's my guess, too. He's a little big to go much faster than that. Racking my brain, I think Eyestone was about the biggest guy I've ever seen who had any real claim to world class sub 2:10. Not sure though. But LVL is in about the same boat, and without 7-8 years of dedicated running only, sub 2:15 just isn't realistic.

I think Lori would be a very good women's marathoner, but not anywhere near the Radcliffe or Ndereba. Of course not. Maybe low 2:30s.
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Re: firstly triathletes are slowat running period [jaylew] [ In reply to ]
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I should be more exact in my language. My thoughts are that a "few months" wouldn't make enough difference in his running to equate to much faster than a high 2:20s time. Using percentages, I'd guess, given only a "few months" he would only be able to post a 2:26-2:28. I think he could probably run close to that in a marathon today. I said 7-8 years only from a frame of reference of the elite marathoners. They have at least 7-8 years of solid running training, targeted at world class times. Its also predicated on taking a YOUNGER LVL out of the triathlon game and making him a runner. It takes that long to build that level of performance. If LVL STOPPED biking and running today, and focused on running, I'd say it would take him 2-4 years and he could run in the mid-to-high-teens. That's based on converting his years of IM fitness to marathon speed.
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Re: Running technique [Allan] [ In reply to ]
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Though you can be a modified shuffler and still be plenty fast. Put Marla Runyan in the middle of a pack, and it looks like she's got really low knee clearance compared to the rest of the field. But she pulled off a very respectable 2:27 in her first marathon.
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roll like you're a ball [ In reply to ]
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The emphasis on letting gravity work for you is what I find most interesting about pose running in the little I've read it.

This goes along with what Francois said about leaning forward.

I don't know if they are doing pose but I've been seeing more toe runners lately. Many of them seem to be leaping from one foot to the other. This is contrary to letting gravity work for you and rolling.

The best running advice a former NCAA 10K champ gave me was to try to be like a ball rolling along the road.

One good measurement of good running form is head bobbing. At a recent major college track meet I paid careful attention noticing the almost none existent head movement of the good runners. This was as true for 200 meter sprinters, milers and 3K runners.

As for the difference between runners and triathlete's running, you have to account for the difficulty of running after riding. In the few duathon's that I've done, I always found this so difficult. I felt it was like trying to run without legs.
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Re: Running technique [FLA Jill] [ In reply to ]
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I agree with your assessment. I've raced some really fast shufflers that could run 31 minute 10ks.

However, the fast shuffle is the key to ironman running in my opinion. As soon as you're pushing off with high knees and a springy step you just use too much energy and most triathletes are too big to do this. Lori Bowden is a fast shuffler but I don't think that she'd be running 2:25 in a marathon if she took some time and just trained for marathons. She would have to really change her stride length and improve her run speed to be a world class marathoner. But I do think that her stride and efficiency are ideal for ironman racing. I come from a running background (track and cross-country) and find it hard to switch from my regular style to a lower-knee style which I think will help my ironman run.
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KK etc etc.......... [ In reply to ]
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If he ran 2.36 in an IM, he could probably at that time have run a 2.23-ish straight. From that to World Class and world class for a man at the moment is sub 2.08, but even from that to a 2.10 is a huge difference.

It took Alan Culpepper 7 years from 95 to 02 to prepare for his first, he added 5 miles to his weekly average each of the last 4 years, that is not a lot, it takes years to build the base for the marathon.

As to KK, lets clarify, he got rushed through the INS BS to have his citizenship in time for the Edmenton (sp?) games, ran London was injured came back really strong and made a pile of cash in Chicago.

Calling him an American developed runner is like Britain calling Zola Bud a British runner, the formative years where all the work was done was not in their adopted countries and he, unlike her, has continued to train abroad.
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Follow up on HGS and Paula, watched the end of [ In reply to ]
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the marathon again and HGS ran the entire cobble section on the cobbles, not the carpet? did this contribute to the foot problem?

Paula's head moves further and further left and right the further in to the race she goes
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Re: KK etc etc.......... [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
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It's really not that important but as I remember it, KK's citizenship was delayed so that he missed the 2000 Olympics. I also thought that he trains in the US, at home in Ossining and at altitiude in either Colo. and or New Mexico. Also unlike Zola Budd whose home was always really in South Africa, members of Khalid's family have moved to the US and he has an American wife.( yes she's an immigrant from Central America but that cross cultural mix only emphasizes how American Khannouchi is.

Agreed that his base was developed in Morocco until age 20. But he developed into a world class runner only after coming here.

Maybe more interesting to discuss KK's use of long hard intervals and more discussion of running training on the site.
Last edited by: michaelg: Mar 6, 03 18:48
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I was discussing that very subect with someone [ In reply to ]
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else here.

Long hard tempo runs at faster than marathon pace........we are talking very hard running, seems to have worked for 5 of 7 of the fastest times run........say they are the hardest most benficial workouts he does....

Zola Budd did not go back to SA for 10 years or more once she took the British passport although she will be running the London marathon this year, her first attempt.......dont think she'll beat the real brit though :)
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setting the record straight [ In reply to ]
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Just to set the facts straight since Andrewmc wrote some unflattering things about Khalid Khannouchi.

>>the biggest thing with KK is that he has followed the cash flow, not the major >>championships, remember he took citizenship before a World Championship and went on to >>drop out........

Khannouchi came to the US in 1993. He got his green card in 1996 and became a citizen on May 2, 2000.

Badly wanting to compete in the Olympics, he and his wife tried to get his citizenship before the trials. His citizenship was actually delayed because of previous bureaucratic delays. With no guarnatee of citizenship before having to commit to running London, Kannouchi ran the London Marathon in 2000 and was unable to come back to run in the trials several weeks later.

He ran in World Championships in 2001, more than a year after getting citizenship, and dropped out but he had also dropped out of the Utica Boilermaker race before Edmonton and missed more than a week of training because of back spasms after Utica.

While I would agree that Khannouchi is not generally thought of as an American runner, there is no sense of recognition when it is mentioned that an American holds the world marathon record, I take exception when you unjustly criticise someone for "following the cash flow." From what I've read about him, Khannouchi is very proud to be an American citizen and strongly wants to represent the US in international competition. He came here as an unknown runner and made himself into a champion while training in the US

As for Zola Budd, she ran for Britain for 4 years, 1984-1988 and returned to South Africa in 1988 and got married there in 1989.

Found it interesting that Khannouchi is using an altitude chamber in his training at Ossining. Trying to live high and train low.
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Re: setting the record straight [michaelg] [ In reply to ]
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not sure about that. Kannouchi as a morroco runner initially, speaks french and told l'equipe a few months back that he trains VERY often in morocco.

in any case, he is as american as Wilson Kipketer is
danish or Mary Pierce is french :-)
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Re: setting the record straight [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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When wilson kipketer went to Denmark he was already a world champion.

When Mary Pierce first competed as French she was a top ranked tennis player.

When Zola Budd went to Britain she was a recognized world class runner.

When Khalid Khannouchi came to the United States he worked as a dish washer
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I did not say anything unflattering, they are [ In reply to ]
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facts.

KK is the fastest "American" over the marathon, and I guess the half, and yet missed the worlds, the Oly trials and has not run an international competition for the US in what? at least the last 2+ years because of London and Chicago.

I dont have a problem with this but I do have a problem with people reading some altruistic motives in to his wanting to gain US citizenship.

He trains in Morocco, there would be some serious problems if he wanted to go to the worlds representing Morocco given the strength of their marathoners.

Lets just assume that he was severly injured, I think the worlds in Canada were in August or Sept and he dropped out of the marathon. If he had finished it, he would have been shelled for 4-6 weeks before he could start piling on the miles again in prep for Chicago.

Pay for Worlds = 0

Pay for Chicago = 200+ I think with the records etc etc

He dropped out, went back, took a week off, continued training and set a WR in Chicago.........

I will be very interested to see if he chooses to run the trials here next year.......
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Re: setting the record straight [michaelg] [ In reply to ]
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and he had never run before? :-)

the development of KK was not done in the US. He is a US citizen now, ok, but his running was not developed here.

Eventually, it looks like with WR you get the citizenship much faster than let's say (picked at random), you are a college professor improving the education of young americans...or even the green card for that matter

I really love sports (most) however this is quite not normal..
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Re: setting the record straight [michaelg] [ In reply to ]
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Francois, I respectfully disagree with your stance. I'm with Michael on this. Don't forget. we're a nation of immigrants. Aside from the Native Americans, no one is really "from here."

Khalid "created" himself once he came to the U.S. He's very sincere in his desire (and actions) to be an American. Because he trains in Morocco doesn't bring his loyalty into questions. Look how many Euro triathletes/Runner's/etc. take up temporary residence in Colorado & California (Zack, et. al). We don't question them....
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Re: KK is a US runner the same way Zola Bud was [michaelg] [ In reply to ]
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I would second this... the guy has an incredible story... true american dream kind of stuff. I have met him before and he si nice and gracious to his fans. A real inspiration for all of us to work harder... he just happens to also be physically gifted.
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Re: setting the record straight [mts] [ In reply to ]
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I actually don't think you disagree with me. The thing on kipketer et al. is a joke.

KK is a US citizen, so will I in a few years.
However, my argument is that he is not a runner that developped his running in the US, he developped his running in Morocco. That's the only point I am trying to make.
Same thing for Kipketer who developped his running in Kenya.
Same for Mary Pierce who always trains in the US.
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Also let us be cyrstal clear about a couple of [ In reply to ]
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things here.

1, He has not run for the US since he took citizenship, I do not count a DNF as running for the US. I am sure USTAF would have been delighted for him to run the World Half marathon Championships last year, he would have been at least 3 minutes faster than the next American but it was in the run up to London............surprise surprise......

2, The US did not develop him

3, Should he go to Athens and run the marathon and win, which is actually unlikely given it is a tactical race and not a TT, he will be viewed the same way as Zola Bud was.

I will make crystal clear, as far as I am concerned he could run for Belize, it would not make any difference to me, I've seen him set to WR's, run 4 marathons and he is incredible but lets just realize where he came from and be honest about his development and track record.........
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Re: setting the record straight [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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Francois wrote

>>and he had never run before? :-)

>>the development of KK was not done in the US. He is a US citizen now, ok, but his running >>was not developed here.

KK came here after benefitting from Morocco's junior running programs. He participated for Morocco in the 1993 World University Games. He stayed in the US after these games because he was not going to get the support he wanted from the Moroccan federation. They did not see him as top tier. He made himself top tier after coming to the US and training here.

>>Eventually, it looks like with WR you get the citizenship much faster than let's say (picked at >>random), you are a college professor improving the education of young americans...or even >>the green card for that matter

>>I really love sports (most) however this is quite not normal..
This gets a little more complicated and I am sympathetic to your charges of favoritism.

Quoting from the website of Sen. Charles Schumer of New York

"Khannouchi came to the United States from his native Morocco in 1993. In September of 1996, he married an American citizen and applied for citizenship in November of that year. Khannouchi should have then had an interview in early 1997, making him eligible for naturalization in early 2000. However, a series of delays and mishaps have disrupted his application.

Due to the backlogs and delays at the New York City INS, Khannouchi was not interviewed by an INS caseworker until September 15, 1997. He passed the interview and should have received a green card dated September 15, 1997, the date of approval. As a legal permanent resident married to a United States citizen, Khannouchi would therefore have been eligible for naturalization on September 15, 2000.

However, the INS lost Khannouchi's file after the caseworker he met with was arrested with other INS employees. In 1998, the INS did grant Khannouchi a green card, but that card is not properly dated September 15, 1997, and thus he is not currently eligible for citizenship until May of 2001. "

In the end KK got his citizenship early in May 2000, with the help of a pseudo foreign job his wife got. This still worked out too late for Olympic participation in 2000 because KK ran London. I agree, if he was not world record holder, he would have had to wait another year.

The original date he should have gotten citizenship of Sept. 2000 would have been too late for the Olympic trials.

His obtaining of his green card however was above board.

It's probably just as well to assume that KK wanted Olympic eligibility for his own individual advancement as opposed to winning a medal for the US. I don't know his motivation but who wants to see the Olympics as nationalist competition over individual athletic acheivement anyway. Okay NBC does and I can't stand watching their coverage.

I also don't know anything about KK's current training in Morocco. I do believe however that he transformed himself from a good runner seen to have limited potential by the Moroccan federation into a world record holder after coming to the US and training in the US at least until he emerged as a top runner.

The career of a marathon runner is very fragile. two races a year. Spots must be carefully picked. The Olympics is a top goal. Outside of the Olympics Chicago, London et al. KK wants to pick top paying marathons with fast courses. That's why he hasn't run New York. No world record potential.

I just wanted to give KK the credit he deserves for leaving Morocco and turning himself into a world record holder. Leaving his federation and then emerging as world class sets KK apart from the other people mentioned.

We probably don't really disagree about much of this.

Nice chatting with you. and always good reading posts from Francois and Andrewmc and Taku too
Last edited by: michaelg: Mar 7, 03 10:21
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Response to original post: Running technique [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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Way back when Francois wrote

>>When looking at triathletes vs runners, triathletes tend to have a much shorter push off, >>that is the moment where the rear foot pushes off the ground is much further back for >>runners than triathletes.


I found a discussion in Peter Coe's book where he talks about the greater range of motion through takeoff of African runners. Their knees of the supporting leg are much further in front of their ankle. He sees this as increasing stride length and power.

I think this is similar to what you are referring to.

He attributes the difference in the African runners to greater ankle flexibility resulting from childhood barefoot running.

From this I gather that ankle flexibility exercises should be helpful.

Since my swimming coach always insisted that increased ankle flexibility with no other training will improve your swim , I guess you will also improve your swim with this added flexibility.

Since I would assume that triathlete's who are good swimmers have fairly flexible ankles, I don't know if this explains the difference in stride between triathletes and runners but I thought you might find it interesting and helpful
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Re: Response to original post: Running technique [michaelg] [ In reply to ]
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Aaron Thigpen is a local (to me) world class sprinter who wrote an evaluation of PowerCranks from the perspective of the runner. Most of the article goes to running technique and he (in discussions with me and in the article) refers to minimizing the time of the foot on the ground, not extending the push off.

I am by no means a runner so my input ends here. His article can be found at

http://www.gamespeed.net/powercranks.html

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Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks
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Re: Response to original post: Running technique [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]
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I admit to some confusion here. In a previous post I talked about a "rolling" effect in efficient running. This agrees with minmizing contact with the ground and a fast "plyometric" turnover.

Howver both Francois and Peter Coe , both of whom I would defer to in terms of running knowledge mention empirical evidence of a greater range of motion in ground contact among elite runners.

Maybe someone else can take this empirical information and give a better understanding of it. Personally I think working on "quick" stride limiting ground contact creates more efficient running. Let a more powerful push off develop naturally as greater strength and flexibility is achieved.

This is a combination of conjecture and experience on my part.

I can personally attest however that powercranks have an almost immediate positive effect on running. This is reflected in both "feel" and the stopwatch. Within 3 weeks of first using powercranks I was running 400 repeats 10 seconds faster, with an easier sense of effort.
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Im impressed ... [michaelg] [ In reply to ]
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MichaelG wrote"Within 3 weeks of first using powercranks I was running 400 repeats 10 seconds faster, with an easier sense of effort."

Wow! That will make the "quote" book. Unless your pre PC times were 2 minutesor so. :-)

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Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks
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