"Yup, I hear your question: So what do you do? Well, I make a MINOR scribe in the seatpost then visually show the customer how to locate the post correctly."

When I deconstruct my bike for travel, I just put papertape (you know, the stuff that you can write on and doesn't leave marks or glue) onto the various places to mark exactly where I need to reline things up. Cheap, easy and accurate. Then if I change bits (seat, bars etc.) I don't need to remember which scribe mark is the right one since there is no permanent mark on my bike.

Cheers,
dt.

Shoes and bikes= not the same. Ineffective analogy in my opinion.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

After re-reading the posts it seems that many people want something tangible, other than their bike properly set up, to take away with them from a fitting. I personally would want something as well. On the other hand I see TD's point. I myself have remeasured my bike hundreds of times and gotten different measurements there and here. In a way, Tom, although he did not design the entire fit process, has I would guess, seen enough different processes to pick and choose parts of each that compliment each other and has come up with something that says "I'm Tom's fit process". I ride with 2 fitters in my town, 1 w/ Europro experience for over a decade as a rider and then as a mechanic. The other guy is a life long shop employee. Both fit differently. I know people who have used both and been set up differently each time. Just because you have measurements does not mean it is correct for you on a different bike. What if you to another shop and they come up with a different number for say TT length for the same bike. Do you go to a third or fourth until a majority is reached? I view fitting as a process as I viewed my 2 physiology professors, both taught the same thing just went about it in different ways. I think Tom is trying to protect an investment he is making in the customer. An investment where he is trying to get a return on that investment. If I buy a bike I expect to get fit onto the bike I buy. As it seems so do many people on this board. I think it is more than fair to try and protect your intellectual property. Once you factor in build, fit, inventory costs, time it took to sell the bike, test rides, the net profit margin on that bike is thin. You don't eat steak on that net profit but Taco Bell instead no supersizing either. Personally I would want something in writing about that paticular bike fit. But I do understand the need to protect your processes etc. Would I be upset if nothing was given to me. Yeah, for a bit but not enough to make me shop elsewhere. Customer service and customer relations sell. So Tom move where it is real real warm in the summer and you have a customer even if you keep my fit measurements.

Tom,

I remember reading an article of dan's a while ago (couple months) on this site that is about getting a tri bike fit. One of the things that he says to look for is to make sure that you get the numbers when you get the fit.

Also, you said that you were charging $65 until just recently...how much are you charging now?

Thanks,



-Kevin

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"Anyone can work hard when they want to; Champions do it when they don't."

Wow. This is very interesting, isn't it. A few thoughts. I have. regarding choosing a new saddle, bars or whatever, which may potentially "nullify" an existing fit, or not be "doable" with a scribe, piece of electrical tape whatever - if you can't get this then you just aren't anal enough. A good piece of cord, a yardstick, an "angle measurer" (I forget the official name) and a piece of paper and a pencil and you can add/delete any piece of equipment and replace it with any other. I've swapped saddles twice without any impact - took me over an hour each time, but that's b/c I am so friggin anal that I took like 15 measurements, repeated them, then installed the new hardware and repeated. While tom is correct that 3 people will see 75.1 cm as very different from person to person I know exactly what and where I am measuring so that is not an issue.

Now, as for fit and numbers - the same thing largely holds. When you get the bike home, measure the crap out of it. With the right tools and lots of patience you can get all your measurements and have more than enough to go off of to reconstruct the bike from scratch if need be. If you are careful in your measurements and constistent then it should never be a problem. As for the process, I personally don't really care. I want to be a good triathlete - not a good bike fitter. If I wanted to be a bike fitter I'd go to Serotta school and FIST and read all Dan's articles 10 times and all that Frankly, I've got enough to worry about trying to go under 10 for an IM - I couldn't give a shit about how Tom arrives at my fit - so long as it does in fact fit and makes me faster. That probably puts me in the minority around here, but I am just not interested in how we get to the result so long as we get there. For example, I make my living designing and building software. Part of that process is that there is a certain amount of intellectual property involved and the client doesn't get to see what is behind the curtain (and most frankly do not want to - they just want a functional product). Now, once the software is delivered the client "owns" that software - they can even look at the code if they want to. BUT - they certainly don't get an explanation from me of what the code does, how it was built, what the process was, and so on. If they want that, there are perfectly good places to go and learn that. AND, if they want to try to reverse engineer it, they are welcome to try but I do not guarantee the results. To me, this is exactly the same as where Tom is coming from. My LBS charges $75 on a new bike for a fitting - frankly, I think that is bullshit. Part of what I'm buying is fit, and it damned well better be in the price of the bike (note: I also do not haggle on price. I pay whatever is asked, no questions asked as I believe in the value of things such as the shop's expertise).

My take-away, is if you really want to know the process and understand fit, then you are better off going with (i.e. paying) a consultant like Fitwerx or whomever and hiring them to measure you, spec some bikes, then you buy the bike from a dealer, then go back to your consultant and do the final fit.

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"To give less than your best is to sacrifice the gift." - Pre

MattMizenko.com

I read this thread yesterday and was thinking a lot about it and decided to post my opinion. Tom, I hope you'll consider changing your policy of not giving your customers this fit information.

I always think it's best to educate the consumer to the extent that they want to be educated. Some people won't care about this info, but others certainly will. Smarter consumers tend to make smarter choices, and I've always got the impression that your goal is to get consumers to make the right choice. This sort of policy sort of implies that the consumer is too stupid or incapable of understanding bike fit. I've been measured up a few times, and every time things are a bit different. I like to see different approaches to fitting and gaining an understanding of what works for me. Wouldn't it be great for those who want to know how to look at a frame's geometry specs and decide if the frame will work for them and in what size, to have shops help educate them in that process? I know I certainly feel loyalty to shops that are willing to take me seriously and take the time to teach me something new. I know I'd be VERY turned off if I went to a shop, spent some time talking about the lines they carry, get measured to determine what bikes in that line might work for me, then be told that they will not give me that info. As a matter of fact, I'd make a point of not buying my bike there. Why do I want the info? I want to look at what other bikes might work for me that the shop doesn't carry. If the shop doesn't want me to do that, does it mean they don't have confidence in their line?

I think shops need to understand that customers are most likely going to tinker with their bikes and fit. At their own risk. I get the impression you are very against this, almost as if you want fit to be something that is not user serviceable. I think people should be encouraged to tinker with their fit and bikes if they are so inclined, it can serve them well in travel, racing, and general riding. Just like how it helps to learn how to change a flat, or swap a cassette, it also helps to learn how one might alleviate knee or back pain.

I understand you concerns about your name being misused or misrepresented. That sucks. People lie all the time. There's nothing you can do about it. It's best to continue to foster and rely on a good reputation.

So you give them the numbers. Not how you arrived at them, but the actual hard numbers.

Sounds like you are confused. If Tom were you, he wouldn't even give up the code.

"I think shops need to understand that customers are most likely going to tinker with their bikes and fit."

Don't see how there can be a "perfect" static fit that would just be left alone for the entire year. The body is a dynamic and constantly changing structure in the sense that our flexibility can be variable from day to day, not only just from the early season to late season. Also have to consider the terrain, the length of the planned ride, etc. as factors relative to comfort and effeciency. Many people fiddle with their bikes all the time making minute changes dependent on various factors. What the initial fit setup does is give a generalized ball park to play in. Nothing wrong IMO for making regular minute changes as needed from there to fine tune.

I concur: Merckx was fiddling to the point of obsession. Hinault was another fiddler. Position change. Valid point.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com