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When is a confession (to a priest) not a confession?
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Let's not get tied up in a debate over whether there SHOULD be a clergy-penitent privilege and, instead, look at the facts of this case.

Under the Federal Rules of Evidence and the state rules in all 50 states, confidential communications to clergy are protected from disclosure. The definition of "confidential communications" vary from state-to-state, but they are largely the same.

Under Catholic Church doctrine, statements made to clergy during confession may not be disclosed. There is an exception if the person indicates he/she intends to cause harm to himself/herself or others. But, typically, if the penitent admits to a crime already committed, the exception does not apply.

In this case, husband goes to church. Tells priest he needs to talk to him. They go into the rectory and are alone. Husband tells priest he just killed his wife, has a gun, and plans to go home and kill himself. Priest calls 911. Police show up and arrest him.

The "explanation" for the priest calling 911 is that this was not the "formal sacrament of confession," so the non-disclosure rule does not apply.

Huh??? The modern Church is moving away from formal confessional in the booth and many of these confessions now take place in more of an office setting. The formality of the setting never used to be the determining factor. Certainly, under the law (federal and state) the formality of the setting does not matter. I find this explanation disturbing.

Now, if the Church wanted to say the exception was because he posed a risk to himself, that is another matter. But, in that case, the priest could only disclose the fact he had a gun and planned on killing himself.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

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Re: When is a confession (to a priest) not a confession? [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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I don't see a problem with this. If the priest would have told the police that the guy wants to kill himself, police arrest the guy, the murder of his wife would have been discovered sooner or later. Does it matter whether the priest sad it or the police found it out on their own? The murder has been done, its not that it could have been prevented.
Why is the formality of the setting important?
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Re: When is a confession (to a priest) not a confession? [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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I did not see much detail in the article about the conversation between the Priest and the man. Is there more? Not enough detail for me to have any opinion.

Did the man say to the Priest, "I want to make a confession," or "In the name OFSHS, my last confession was ___."

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The modern Church is moving away from formal confessional in the booth and many of these confessions now take place in more of an office setting.

I haven't seen that.

Do you think there should be a presumption that when someone tells a Priest about criminal behavior that he is intending to make a confession?

________
It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev
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Re: When is a confession (to a priest) not a confession? [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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In this case, husband goes to church. Tells priest he needs to talk to him. They go into the rectory and are alone. Husband tells priest he just killed his wife, has a gun, and plans to go home and kill himself. Priest calls 911. Police show up and arrest him.

The "explanation" for the priest calling 911 is that this was not the "formal sacrament of confession," so the non-disclosure rule does not apply.

Who is claiming that the setting was the reason it was not, "formal sacrament of confession" ?

Could they be arguing there was no act of penance or something else thus no confession.

"I think I've cracked the code. double letters are cheaters except for perfect squares (a, d, i, p and y). So Leddy isn't a cheater... "
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Re: When is a confession (to a priest) not a confession? [softrun] [ In reply to ]
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softrun wrote:
I don't see a problem with this. If the priest would have told the police that the guy wants to kill himself, police arrest the guy, the murder of his wife would have been discovered sooner or later. Does it matter whether the priest sad it or the police found it out on their own?

There is no guarantee the police would have arrested the guy for saying he wanted to kill himself. Likewise, that may not have resulted in their immediate discovery of the murdered wife.

softrun wrote:
The murder has been done, its not that it could have been prevented.
Right. But now the police have a confession, which is huge in any murder case, no matter how straight forward it may appear.

softrun wrote:
Why is the formality of the setting important?

That's the point of the OP. Under the law, the formality of the setting is irrelevant. What matters is that the comment was made in a private setting with the intent to be a confidential communication. Under Church Law, the formality of the setting should not matter if the Church continues to push confessional into a more laid back, face-to-face setting.

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
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Re: When is a confession (to a priest) not a confession? [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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When I go to Confession [twice a year - once during Lent & once during Advent] I go to a Parish other than my own

Granted, I covered all the deepest darkest shameful sins years ago, so now it's more of a touch up than a full-on soul-scrubbing, but I'd still rather not have my voice recognized

"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin
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Re: When is a confession (to a priest) not a confession? [H-] [ In reply to ]
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H- wrote:
I did not see much detail in the article about the conversation between the Priest and the man. Is there more? Not enough detail for me to have any opinion.

Did the man say to the Priest, "I want to make a confession," or "In the name OFSHS, my last confession was ___."

There were two articles. I posted the original source. In the secondary source, the article said the man entered the church and told the priest he needed to talk.

H- wrote:
Quote:
The modern Church is moving away from formal confessional in the booth and many of these confessions now take place in more of an office setting.


I haven't seen that.

Going all the way back to my parochial grade school days, this was happening. The college church I attended did face-to-face all the time.

H- wrote:
Do you think there should be a presumption that when someone tells a Priest about criminal behavior that he is intending to make a confession?

Under the law, that presumption exists. I'm not saying it is right or wrong, but that is what the law presumes. There is a subjective and an objective element. Did the speaker intend the communication to be confidential? Would a reasonable person assume the communication to be confidential?

Obviously, it is a fact-specific question. If I run into a church and blurt out I committed a crime, no. If I approach a priest and say we need to talk, go somewhere private, start with "I did something wrong," then yes.

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
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Re: When is a confession (to a priest) not a confession? [Leddy] [ In reply to ]
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Leddy wrote:
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In this case, husband goes to church. Tells priest he needs to talk to him. They go into the rectory and are alone. Husband tells priest he just killed his wife, has a gun, and plans to go home and kill himself. Priest calls 911. Police show up and arrest him.

The "explanation" for the priest calling 911 is that this was not the "formal sacrament of confession," so the non-disclosure rule does not apply.


Who is claiming that the setting was the reason it was not, "formal sacrament of confession" ?

Could they be arguing there was no act of penance or something else thus no confession.

The priest is making that claim and the Church is supporting him. Click on the link I provided. Scroll down. You will see a text box where the Church explains the rationale.

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
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Re: When is a confession (to a priest) not a confession? [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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According to the article is says “The individual spoke with the priest outside of sacramental confession,”. To me that means outside of the sacrament of confession not outside of the confessional

"I think I've cracked the code. double letters are cheaters except for perfect squares (a, d, i, p and y). So Leddy isn't a cheater... "
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Re: When is a confession (to a priest) not a confession? [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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According to the article:

“He was a little distraught and, after a moment, he pretty much just said I need to tell you that I killed my wife and I am going to go home and kill myself,” Polinek said. “After a little while, I was able to convince him for the sake of the rest of his family and other people that it would be a good idea to call the police — 911.″

So the priest is saying that he received the consent of the shooter to call the police, no? Seems the church is also saying this 'didn't count' as a confessional given the locale and pre-conversation. I have no strong view. Seems like all the guy wants is for someone to tell him god forgives him...
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Re: When is a confession (to a priest) not a confession? [Leddy] [ In reply to ]
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Leddy wrote:
According to the article is says “The individual spoke with the priest outside of sacramental confession,”. To me that means outside of the sacrament of confession not outside of the confessional

Understood, but here is what it says:

The Roman Catholic priest who spoke to Grazioli said he never asked for the sacrament of confession, but told the priest what he had done.

Ok. Since when did the penitent have to formally require the sacrament?

Again, the law is based on Church Doctrine. The law does not require this formality. I am a bit disturbed the Church is relying on the lack of formality and/or magic words.

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
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Re: When is a confession (to a priest) not a confession? [Kay Serrar] [ In reply to ]
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Kay Serrar wrote:
According to the article:

“He was a little distraught and, after a moment, he pretty much just said I need to tell you that I killed my wife and I am going to go home and kill myself,” Polinek said. “After a little while, I was able to convince him for the sake of the rest of his family and other people that it would be a good idea to call the police — 911.″

So the priest is saying that he received the consent of the shooter to call the police, no? Seems the church is also saying this 'didn't count' as a confessional given the locale and pre-conversation. I have no strong view. Seems like all the guy wants is for someone to tell him god forgives him...

The penitent must show an act of penance in order for it to be a confession. Or if I said that wrong he must be "sorry" for whatever sin. If he merely says hey I just killed my wife and I am going to kill myself I think the priest would be within his rights. Could be wrong. I am a little rusty on this stuff.

I do know only the penitent man will pass .

"I think I've cracked the code. double letters are cheaters except for perfect squares (a, d, i, p and y). So Leddy isn't a cheater... "
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Re: When is a confession (to a priest) not a confession? [Leddy] [ In reply to ]
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Leddy wrote:
Kay Serrar wrote:
According to the article:

“He was a little distraught and, after a moment, he pretty much just said I need to tell you that I killed my wife and I am going to go home and kill myself,” Polinek said. “After a little while, I was able to convince him for the sake of the rest of his family and other people that it would be a good idea to call the police — 911.″

So the priest is saying that he received the consent of the shooter to call the police, no? Seems the church is also saying this 'didn't count' as a confessional given the locale and pre-conversation. I have no strong view. Seems like all the guy wants is for someone to tell him god forgives him...


The penitent must show an act of penance in order for it to be a confession. Or if I said that wrong he must be "sorry" for whatever sin. If he merely says hey I just killed my wife and I am going to kill myself I think the priest would be within his rights. Could be wrong. I am a little rusty on this stuff.

I do know only the penitent man will pass .

Can't you also pass if you answer three questions?
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Re: When is a confession (to a priest) not a confession? [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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Ok. Since when did the penitent have to formally require the sacrament?

When they kill their wife.

"I think I've cracked the code. double letters are cheaters except for perfect squares (a, d, i, p and y). So Leddy isn't a cheater... "
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Re: When is a confession (to a priest) not a confession? [Kay Serrar] [ In reply to ]
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Kay Serrar wrote:
According to the article:

“He was a little distraught and, after a moment, he pretty much just said I need to tell you that I killed my wife and I am going to go home and kill myself,” Polinek said. “After a little while, I was able to convince him for the sake of the rest of his family and other people that it would be a good idea to call the police — 911.″

So the priest is saying that he received the consent of the shooter to call the police, no? Seems the church is also saying this 'didn't count' as a confessional given the locale and pre-conversation. I have no strong view. Seems like all the guy wants is for someone to tell him god forgives him...

I do not believe he received consent from the shooter to call the police. If that was the case, the Church would not need to explain why this was not a breach of the confessional. According to Church Doctrine, if the individual admits to a crime, the priest cannot disclose that admission, but should use every effort to convince the individual to turn himself in. Even if the individual agrees to turn himself in, the priest still cannot advise the police the individual confessed to the crime. Here, the priest told the police the shooter confessed to the crime.

My issue with this is - The Law has chosen to adopt and codify a privilege stemming solely from Church Doctrine. If The Law is going to do so, then the Church should not be dicking around with this area. If the Church wants to start playing games, then perhaps The Law should remove this privilege.

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
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Re: When is a confession (to a priest) not a confession? [Leddy] [ In reply to ]
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Leddy wrote:
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Ok. Since when did the penitent have to formally require the sacrament?


When they kill their wife.

Sorry, that should have said "request" as in "formally request the sacrament."

Again, look at what I said to Kay. The Law has adopted and codified a privilege based solely on Church Doctrine. Now the Church wants to dick around with this doctrine. Perhaps The Law should then revoke the privilege.

The interesting note here is that the confession to the priest will almost certainly be inadmissible at trial because it most likely falls under the clergy-penitent privilege. But, hey, the priest is able to sleep at night because this wasn't a formal confession.

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
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Re: When is a confession (to a priest) not a confession? [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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JSA wrote:
Kay Serrar wrote:
According to the article:

“He was a little distraught and, after a moment, he pretty much just said I need to tell you that I killed my wife and I am going to go home and kill myself,” Polinek said. “After a little while, I was able to convince him for the sake of the rest of his family and other people that it would be a good idea to call the police — 911.″

So the priest is saying that he received the consent of the shooter to call the police, no? Seems the church is also saying this 'didn't count' as a confessional given the locale and pre-conversation. I have no strong view. Seems like all the guy wants is for someone to tell him god forgives him...


...perhaps The Law should remove this privilege.

That would seem sensible to me. Personally I don't think you should be able to confess to a crime to a priest and not expect legal repercussions.
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Re: When is a confession (to a priest) not a confession? [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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JSA wrote:
Kay Serrar wrote:
According to the article:

“He was a little distraught and, after a moment, he pretty much just said I need to tell you that I killed my wife and I am going to go home and kill myself,” Polinek said. “After a little while, I was able to convince him for the sake of the rest of his family and other people that it would be a good idea to call the police — 911.″

So the priest is saying that he received the consent of the shooter to call the police, no? Seems the church is also saying this 'didn't count' as a confessional given the locale and pre-conversation. I have no strong view. Seems like all the guy wants is for someone to tell him god forgives him...


I do not believe he received consent from the shooter to call the police. If that was the case, the Church would not need to explain why this was not a breach of the confessional. According to Church Doctrine, if the individual admits to a crime, the priest cannot disclose that admission, but should use every effort to convince the individual to turn himself in. Even if the individual agrees to turn himself in, the priest still cannot advise the police the individual confessed to the crime. Here, the priest told the police the shooter confessed to the crime

I read it this way, and there may be something missing in the story

Man: Father, I have killed my wife, and I am going to kill myself
Priest: For the sake of the rest of your family and other people, I think it would be a good idea for you to call the police — 911. If you don't - or can't - I will
Man: Thank you, Father


"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin
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Re: When is a confession (to a priest) not a confession? [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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Isn't there a law stating if you have strong reason to believe a serious crime has occurred you are legally compelled to report it? Wouldn't such a law supercede rules of confidentiality or religious formality?
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Re: When is a confession (to a priest) not a confession? [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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If the killer didn't show any real sorrow for the murder then I still think the priest was within his rights. I also don't think this is new with the church. Probably not a regular thing but I seem to remember this when I was younger.

Had the murderer actually said the formal words from a confession I think it would be a more difficult argument. But it sounds as was stated in the article he went to talk to the priest, not confess. So lesson #1, after a murder start all conversations with clergy, "forgive me father for I have sinned".

VII. THE ACTS OF THE PENITENT[/url]
[/url]1450 "Penance requires . . . the sinner to endure all things willingly, be contrite of heart, confess with the lips, and practice complete humility and fruitful satisfaction."49
[/url]Contrition
1451 Among the penitent's acts contrition occupies first place. Contrition is "sorrow of the soul and detestation for the sin committed, together with the resolution not to sin again."50

"I think I've cracked the code. double letters are cheaters except for perfect squares (a, d, i, p and y). So Leddy isn't a cheater... "
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Re: When is a confession (to a priest) not a confession? [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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It seems dicey, but there is a ritual around confession, whether it is in the confessional, face to face, or in a group.

Just further evidence that all religion is weird. :)

I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.
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Re: When is a confession (to a priest) not a confession? [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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Based on what you say, I'd agree with your assessment. However, I don't rate very high the accuracy of local reporting such as this, so who knows what really happened.

I agree with your description of confession in the last 30 years, but I wouldn't characterize lack of screens as lack of formality. Folks still line up and wait for a Priest at designated time who is waiting to hear confessions in a designated private place. Aside from the screen, is the architecture of a booth somehow relevant? (BTW, most confessionals that I've been to have option to sit behind screen or in front of Priest.)

Accepting the reported facts as true, I'd be inclined to think the Priest made a mistake. But maybe the facts are different or there are additional facts. Maybe the Vicar made a mistake too. And they would be serious mistakes. But I don't read any more into than that.

________
It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev
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Re: When is a confession (to a priest) not a confession? [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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This is what should happen. As the holder of the privilege, the parishioner should move the suppress the priest's improper disclosure of a clearly confidential communication that is privileged.

The motion to suppress should be granted and all "fruits of the poisonous tree," namely the confession et al., should likewise be excluded from evidence.

Without such evidence, the parishioner should be set free so that he can, indeed, end his own life thereby saving the taxpayers lots of money for a needless trial, inevitable appeals, and the probable life incarceration of this murderer.

Of course this won't happen because it's way too efficient and economical.
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Re: When is a confession (to a priest) not a confession? [Kay Serrar] [ In reply to ]
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Kay Serrar wrote:

That would seem sensible to me. Personally I don't think you should be able to confess to a crime to a priest and not expect legal repercussions.

Well, I'm torn. There are documented cases where a person went to a priest and confessed to a crime and the priest was able to convince the person to turn himself/herself in. Those cases may not have been resolved as easily or at all without that intervention by the priest. So, I see the value to the privilege. This, and the fact these incidents are few and far between, is why I have never opposed the privilege.

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
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Re: When is a confession (to a priest) not a confession? [JD21] [ In reply to ]
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JD21 wrote:
Isn't there a law stating if you have strong reason to believe a serious crime has occurred you are legally compelled to report it? Wouldn't such a law supercede rules of confidentiality or religious formality?

Nope. I believe you are thinking of the exception for the situation in which you have a strong belief a crime is going to be committed that could cause grievous harm to another. That exception applies to both the clergy-penitent privilege and the attorney-client privilege. But, there is no exception to those privileges for crimes that have already been committed, no matter how serious.

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
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