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How I'll use the TriRig Alpha One
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Okay, so now that the Alpha One is public many of you can understand why, from a fitter's perspective, this bar is a game hanger. Because of the tech I have available for my clients, here's how I envision using the bar to make aero testing more efficient and affordable.


Anyone who's aero tested in a wind tunnel or on the velodrome knows how much time is spent/wasted making changes to the bike preparing for the next test. How many changes you can test is limited by time. The harder it is to make changes to your particular bike, the more time you waste. Time is money when you're aero testing; it gets especially expensive if you're paying for a tunnel. The changes, by the way, can also create a lot of wear and tear on your bike and it's components.


The primary goal of any fit and/or aero test is to find the absolute best position you can maintain for the entirety of your event. Nothing matters more than your position...nothing else is even close. Besides that, your position will effect virtually anything else we might need to test. Helmets, clothing, hydration/nutrition setup. All are effected by your position and can't be effectively tested until it's set. The single biggest limiter for me when testing athletes is their equipment, and how quickly changes can be made, or whether we can even achieve the changes we want to make. I wake up in sweats thinking about P-5's!


But, what if I ignored your bike? What if I had a size run of frames with 1X eTap setups, and a Alpha One, we used to find your ideal position? The level of efficiency we could achieve would really change everything for us. On the velodrome, we set the bike up replicating your current position, and run after run, we can very quickly make changes and keep you going. Testing two different position changes multiple times to gather more data teasing out small changes in CdA will be quicker, easier, and less error prone. Instead of 3 or 4 position changes during a session, we could try 10. Once the ideal position is known, we can test helmets and the rest. You get more testing for your money.


Now think of wind tunnel time. Aero camps with generic bikes and Alpha One bars are a much smarter way to go. Let's say you have 10 athletes, and 4 of them ride 54cm bikes. You group them together, and can test positions very, very quickly without wasting time swapping bikes. You come in with saddle positions set up on multiple seat posts, so swapping out each athlete is very quick and efficient. Suddenly there's a lot less time standing around, and more time spent testing. With proper pre-test protocol, each athlete would need less tunnel time, and costs could be brought down. This brings the San Diego tunnel into play for many athletes. You can purchase time in 20 minute increments at a very reasonable cost.


This is where my mind went when Nick first showed me the Alpha One. I think aero testing this way makes more sense for position, helmets, and clothing. Once we know what's ideal for you, we can set up your bike and test anything else more efficiently as well. We can bring costs down, or at least give you more for your money. We're working on this right now. Perhaps we'll have something in place this winter.






Jim Manton / ERO Sports / ERO Insight

Aero Tidbits posted on Instagram & Facebook
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Re: How I'll use the TriRig Alpha One [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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I thought I recall Grill make a comment on these forums that his position tested differently on different frames. Something about his old Plasma position replicated on his P5 tested differently.

What do you think? Or would the ability to test so many positions so quickly 'probably' be an ideal position for whatever bike the tester is on?

Alex Arman

Strava
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Re: How I'll use the TriRig Alpha One [doublea334] [ In reply to ]
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exactly, plus you can't expect wheel tests to transfer between bikes either then.
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Re: How I'll use the TriRig Alpha One [jeffp] [ In reply to ]
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jeffp wrote:
exactly, plus you can't expect wheel tests to transfer between bikes either then.

Not for wheel testing. Wheel testing, by the way, without extensive tire testing, is pretty useless at this point.

Jim Manton / ERO Sports / ERO Insight

Aero Tidbits posted on Instagram & Facebook
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Re: How I'll use the TriRig Alpha One [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Jim@EROsports wrote:
Wheel testing, by the way, without extensive tire testing, is pretty useless at this point.

What's changed to make it less useful than it was before?
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Re: How I'll use the TriRig Alpha One [doublea334] [ In reply to ]
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doublea334 wrote:
I thought I recall Grill make a comment on these forums that his position tested differently on different frames. Something about his old Plasma position replicated on his P5 tested differently.

What do you think? Or would the ability to test so many positions so quickly 'probably' be an ideal position for whatever bike the tester is on?

Yeah, I don't foresee that being an issue. If you want to tease out those numbers, you'd need multiple tests on multiple frames making sure everything is replicated to the millimeter. Those clients are basically non-existent, and even then it would be a mostly Quixotic endeavor.

Jim Manton / ERO Sports / ERO Insight

Aero Tidbits posted on Instagram & Facebook
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Re: How I'll use the TriRig Alpha One [jkhayc] [ In reply to ]
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If you want to test wheels, you need to test multiple tire combinations (size, brand, model) with each wheel to get the answers you're looking for. This past year has shown me just how susceptible certain wheel brands are to tire changes. Put the wrong tire on a wheel, you might as well be riding a box section rim. Don't get me wrong, it's important stuff, but doing it right is not quick, nor cheap. It's not what I'm addressing with this thread.

Jim Manton / ERO Sports / ERO Insight

Aero Tidbits posted on Instagram & Facebook
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Re: How I'll use the TriRig Alpha One [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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For your application it's definitely a game changer. I've actually contemplated buying one just to take with my to A2 next spring.

With that said, whatever fit setup I got from such a session I'd likely just transfer over to my SpeedConcept. I'm not totally sold on having my stack supported by a single bolt in the front. Seat posts slip sometimes and while it's unnerving . Having your front end slip because you went over a bump could have far more drastic consequences.

WTB: TriRig Omega SV (not x). PM me if you have one :)
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Re: How I'll use the TriRig Alpha One [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Jim@EROsports wrote:
If you want to test wheels, you need to test multiple tire combinations (size, brand, model) with each wheel to get the answers you're looking for. This past year has shown me just how susceptible certain wheel brands are to tire changes. Put the wrong tire on a wheel, you might as well be riding a box section rim. Don't get me wrong, it's important stuff, but doing it right is not quick, nor cheap. It's not what I'm addressing with this thread.

What you say has been true for quite some time, hence why I thought it was a curious tangent.

I could never, ever bring myself to purchase (and use) the One. The entire system relies on a single 4mm crush bolt. At least with Cervelo, I have a real company to hold liable if QC isn't good. I thought Nick said last year that he was going to double down and really focus on the quality control and development iterations of EXISTING products. The Alpha X is already "ahead of the game" so I don't see the need to create another handlebar system when existing products could use some further development. I do appreciate that he copied a really good design though.
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Re: How I'll use the TriRig Alpha One [jkhayc] [ In reply to ]
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i would think that 4mm bolt was pushing a wedge in there just like a cervelo seatpost

re wheels.....i have found large difference in front wheel use with specific tire between frame/fork combos would not want to test that on a generic frame as all the data on it would be worthless.

not sure if Grill found position 1 faster and position 2 slower on frame A and then the reverse on frame B or not
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Re: How I'll use the TriRig Alpha One [jeffp] [ In reply to ]
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Yea, but at least if my seatpost drops I don't automatically crash. If my front end suddenly drops...



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Re: How I'll use the TriRig Alpha One [jeffp] [ In reply to ]
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Not to mention the expense and huge PIA that setting up a bunch of generic bikes would entail. While it may save time in the tunnel, the time outside of the tunnel would likely be in the hour range of wrenching and setting up the bikes. A "Fleet" of bikes all equipped with A1 bar and you're looking at 3-4k/bike unless you go with an open mold frame of some sort. There is really so little money in wind tunnel testing that it doesn't make sense, at least it wouldn't to us.

Then it comes back around to how do the numbers stack up compared to what you're actually riding? For example, one can't test hydration and storage interactions on a generic frame and compare them to a Ventum or TREK.

I do think this would be a good bar to have to stick on the front of someone's personal bike in the tunnel though. Adjusting pad and aero bar stack and reach is pretty simple and this would allow for a lot changes without a lot of wrenching.

The big thing we stress when Brian and I are testing people at A2 is that they have a good position dialed in before they come to the tunnel. The wind tunnel is not the place to be making big changes to positions. If they don't have a good position, then we refer them to a good fitter before they come or I work with them if they are within a reasonable geographic area. We try to hit the low hanging fruit after that of reasonably small changes hand and arm positions. Then we look at textiles and helmets.

So yeah, I think it is a pretty cool idea, just one I can't see that would have a reasonable ROI, without some serious partnerships (ie donated or demo bikes/equipment) being involved.



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
AeroCamp March 8-10 A2 Wind Tunnel
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Re: How I'll use the TriRig Alpha One [jkhayc] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah, but in the AG2R/Factor's defense, they said they used the wrong size boltS. Plural, bolts. So they messed up multiple bolts.

The TriRig One only needs a single bolt and the length of the bolt never changes. This is pretty clear science.

Alex Arman

Strava
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Re: How I'll use the TriRig Alpha One [doublea334] [ In reply to ]
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I'll be honest, having 1 M4 bolt pushing a wedge into the monopost makes me pretty nervous. That's a lot of weight suspended out there with not a lot of surface area for friction. If you hit a big bump and dropped your stack 2cm that could be real real bad.


doublea334 wrote:
Yeah, but in the AG2R/Factor's defense, they said they used the wrong size boltS. Plural, bolts. So they messed up multiple bolts.

The TriRig One only needs a single bolt and the length of the bolt never changes. This is pretty clear science.



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
AeroCamp March 8-10 A2 Wind Tunnel
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Re: How I'll use the TriRig Alpha One [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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Jim....seeing a lot of comments on the one bolt supporting the stack. Are you aware of what testing was done to insure there was sufficient support?
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Re: How I'll use the TriRig Alpha One [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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Ex-cyclist wrote:
I'll be honest, having 1 M4 bolt pushing a wedge into the monopost makes me pretty nervous. That's a lot of weight suspended out there with not a lot of surface area for friction. If you hit a big bump and dropped your stack 2cm that could be real real bad.

It could be bad, but I'd think it'd be somewhat recoverable. You still have steerage. Loss of steerage results in crash nearly 100% of the time. Just a vertical slip with a definite backstop, and there's a reasonable chance of recovery.
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Re: How I'll use the TriRig Alpha One [Mike Alexander] [ In reply to ]
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Mike Alexander wrote:
Jim....seeing a lot of comments on the one bolt supporting the stack. Are you aware of what testing was done to insure there was sufficient support?

The better question is “is there even a functional working prototype yet?” If there’s not, this is Kickstarter by any other name and we are the beta testers.
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Re: How I'll use the TriRig Alpha One [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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kileyay wrote:
Mike Alexander wrote:
Jim....seeing a lot of comments on the one bolt supporting the stack. Are you aware of what testing was done to insure there was sufficient support?


The better question is “is there even a functional working prototype yet?” If there’s not, this is Kickstarter by any other name and we are the beta testers.


That was my question in the other thread. Every picture and video I've seen are renderings.
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Re: How I'll use the TriRig Alpha One [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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kileyay wrote:
Mike Alexander wrote:
Jim....seeing a lot of comments on the one bolt supporting the stack. Are you aware of what testing was done to insure there was sufficient support?


The better question is “is there even a functional working prototype yet?” If there’s not, this is Kickstarter by any other name and we are the beta testers.

Yes. A few.

Jim Manton / ERO Sports / ERO Insight

Aero Tidbits posted on Instagram & Facebook
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Re: How I'll use the TriRig Alpha One [Mike Alexander] [ In reply to ]
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Mike Alexander wrote:
Jim....seeing a lot of comments on the one bolt supporting the stack. Are you aware of what testing was done to insure there was sufficient support?

I don't know. I remember him telling me about the clamping force and I was impressed at the time, but that was a few months ago, and I'm old. I do understand the concern, though.

Re: Other questions. I don't see having a size run of frames all that expensive. Fairly bare frames (and for transparency, there are already manufacturers wanting their frames to be used for this so costs will be low), one set of wheels, 1X setup with an eTap rear derailleur and a Blip Box (no blips). What else do you need? A size run of cranks will be necessary. A couple of extra seat posts you can take a few minutes to set up prior to testing maybe for multiple athletes using the same bike. People don't come to ERO for only aero testing, they come for fit & aero testing. Aero testing is not bike fit. It's measuring, not fit. I've lost count of how many people come to us for aero testing with horrible positions. In those cases, I no longer aero test as it's a waste of time. Conduct the fit first, then aero test. It's why I want videos of position before clients arrive. Heath gets this for sure. He's been through those headaches many times now.

Why do wheels keep coming up? This would absolutely not be about wheels. If you truly want to test wheels (and tires), and determine what combination is best for you and your bike. That, alone, is at least a day in the tunnel. Two if you really want to be thorough. Hell, wait a few months and get whatever "aero stick" floats your boat, and test for days at no cost other than your time. Otherwise, as I've stated earlier, you're swinging at windmills. If you're not willing to do that, buy a set of HED's and know at worst you probably have the second best set up possible. Geez, I wish people would spend as much time on their position as they do wheels, though Slowtwitcher's tend to understand this better than most, so I'm preaching to the choir here.

Jim Manton / ERO Sports / ERO Insight

Aero Tidbits posted on Instagram & Facebook
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Re: How I'll use the TriRig Alpha One [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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To paraphrase Robert Chung: New wheels are one of the worst ways to spend your money if you are looking for aero gains.


Jim@EROsports wrote:

Geez, I wish people would spend as much time on their position as they do wheels, though Slowtwitcher's tend to understand this better than most, so I'm preaching to the choir here.



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
AeroCamp March 8-10 A2 Wind Tunnel
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Re: How I'll use the TriRig Alpha One [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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I know it is fashionable to use Nick as a punching bag around here, but there is really not a better post that sums all this up.

This also answers the question as to why this is available to pre-order with a nebulous target date and the price is "low". Basically the orders are seed money. Nothing wrong with that, but it is what it is.


kileyay wrote:

The better question is “is there even a functional working prototype yet?” If there’s not, this is Kickstarter by any other name and we are the beta testers.



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
AeroCamp March 8-10 A2 Wind Tunnel
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Re: How I'll use the TriRig Alpha One [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Jim@EROsports wrote:
I wake up in sweats thinking about P-5's!


LOL! Jim, I have a 51cm P5-Six with the stock 3T Aduro (low mount). I'm at the point that I can't get the stack any lower. I was hoping this Alpha One would do the trick, but apparently the lowest stack is 55mm which is only 5mm better than 3T Aduro. Should I got with ENVE SES areobar instead which has a min stack of 15mm according to its spec?
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Re: How I'll use the TriRig Alpha One [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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Ex-cyclist wrote:
I know it is fashionable to use Nick as a punching bag around here, but there is really not a better post that sums all this up.

This also answers the question as to why this is available to pre-order with a nebulous target date and the price is "low". Basically the orders are seed money. Nothing wrong with that, but it is what it is.


kileyay wrote:

The better question is “is there even a functional working prototype yet?” If there’s not, this is Kickstarter by any other name and we are the beta testers.

I’m working on an FAQ to address a lot of the questions that have come up. But very briefly I’ll hit a couple here to nip them in the bud.

Yes the bars exist. This is not a “seed” or “Kickstarter” situation as suggested.

We first produced solid metal prototypes as a proof of concept back in the early months of this year. These were solid and tested very well. So we proceeded to open the carbon molds several months ago. Those molds are finished and the first pulls have come out. I will post pictures in the next few days. We are finalizing layup and doing fatigue testing right now.

Yes we tested the post wedge, back during the metal prototyping phase, and are working to ensure the carbon version performs the same as the metal prototypes. It’s not functionally different in mechanism from seatposts you see on MANY bikes. And actually does one better because the force goes directly perpendicular to the post’s telescope axis (seatposts wedges have to be slightly off-perpendicular due to the geometry there, which saps them of a little force).

Again I’m working on a more detailed FAQ for the site which will be ready in the coming days/week, along with pictures of the prototypes, first carbon samples, and lots of info. Bear with me here, there’s a LOT that goes into prepping a launch, and I don’t always anticipate every question or concern. But I hear you and I’ll answer the best I can.

--
TriRig.com
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Re: How I'll use the TriRig Alpha One [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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personally the wedge doesn't bother me. there is a heck of a lot more weight on saddles supported by a single bolt/wedge
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