Champion clincher tire (Vittoria CS) beats old Crono CS tubular (barely)

Feb 16, 17 19:24

Post #1 of 110 (8932 views)

I did a head-to-head today with my current champ, the CS clincher and an old tubular I mounted a decade ago.

Vittoria CS clincher: 25.1 mph; 52 watts; Crr: .00251
Vittorial Crono CS tubular 25.3 mph 54 watts, Crr: .00259

So the clincher wins by a hair. However, the Crono CS tubular soundly beats the Conti TT and the Turbo Cotton. I imagine a wider version of this tire would beat them all.

A few notes:

* The Vittoria CS clincher was mounted with a 10-year old Michelin 18-20c latex tube, known as "Old Greenie"
* The tubular is spec'ed as 20C. It measures around 20.5mm.
* The wattage for the CS clincher was lower than in previous trials because I lost 5 pounds and switched to a TT bike.
* The tubular was glued on with either shellac or Mastik 1 (after 10 years I forgot)
* The tubular is mounted on a Zipp 808, the clincher on a generic semi-aero 30mm deep rim.
* Pressure was 120psi

My latest book: "Out of the Melting Pot, Into the Fire" is on sale on Amazon and at other online and local booksellers

Last edited by: jens: Feb 16, 17 21:37

Re: Champion clincher tire (Vittoria CS) beats old Crono CS tubular (barely) [jens] [ In reply to ]

Feb 16, 17 19:33

Post #2 of 110 (8919 views)

i think you upended some stuff.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Re: Champion clincher tire (Vittoria CS) beats old Crono CS tubular (barely) [jens] [ In reply to ]

Feb 16, 17 19:51

Post #3 of 110 (8899 views)

Yeah, but it seems nobody can actually mount a CS clincher. That's gotta be a mark against.

------------------------------------------------------------
Any run that doesn't include pooping in someone's front yard is a win.

Re: Champion clincher tire (Vittoria CS) beats old Crono CS tubular (barely) [CCF] [ In reply to ]

Feb 16, 17 20:11

Post #4 of 110 (8886 views)

CCF wrote:

Yeah, but it seems nobody can actually mount a CS clincher. That's gotta be a mark against.

I've been able to do it plenty of times now. And I suck at mounting tires (and just about anything vaguely mechanical). I do use tire levers most of the time, but have managed it without once or twice. The Park levers with the metal inside are a godsend. I kept breaking the other ones.

My latest book: "Out of the Melting Pot, Into the Fire" is on sale on Amazon and at other online and local booksellers

Re: Champion clincher tire (Vittoria CS) beats old Crono CS tubular (barely) [jens] [ In reply to ]

Feb 16, 17 21:18

Post #5 of 110 (8850 views)

Sorry to ask a dumb question, but could you clarify if your Corsa is the TLR version (the tubeless ready tire). If so, can this tire be used with a latex tube on a non-tubeless rim (older HED Jet disc wheel)?

Last edited by: grumpier.mike: Feb 16, 17 21:20

Re: Champion clincher tire (Vittoria CS) beats old Crono CS tubular (barely) [grumpier.mike] [ In reply to ]

Feb 16, 17 21:34

Post #6 of 110 (8840 views)

grumpier.mike wrote:

Sorry to ask a dumb question, but could you clarify if your Corsa is the TLR version (the tubeless ready tire). If so, can this tire be used with a latex tube on a non-tubeless rim (older HED Jet disc wheel)?

Yes it is the TLR version. And yes I am using it with a latex tube on a non-tubeless rim. I should have clarified that in the original post. I've updated it to reflect that.

My latest book: "Out of the Melting Pot, Into the Fire" is on sale on Amazon and at other online and local booksellers

Last edited by: jens: Feb 16, 17 21:37

Re: Champion clincher tire (Vittoria CS) beats old Crono CS tubular (barely) [jens] [ In reply to ]

Feb 16, 17 21:51

Post #7 of 110 (8826 views)

Good to hear. After the comments in the other thread from slow man I had pretty much written that tire off.

------------------------------------------------------------
Any run that doesn't include pooping in someone's front yard is a win.

Re: Champion clincher tire (Vittoria CS) beats old Crono CS tubular (barely) [CCF] [ In reply to ]

Feb 17, 17 6:54

Post #8 of 110 (8672 views)

For what is worth, I can mount the CS without any tools on a reynolds aero 58.

Re: Champion clincher tire (Vittoria CS) beats old Crono CS tubular (barely) [jens] [ In reply to ]

Feb 17, 17 7:19

Post #9 of 110 (8656 views)

jens wrote:

CCF wrote:

Yeah, but it seems nobody can actually mount a CS clincher. That's gotta be a mark against.

I've been able to do it plenty of times now. And I suck at mounting tires (and just about anything vaguely mechanical). I do use tire levers most of the time, but have managed it without once or twice. The Park levers with the metal inside are a godsend. I kept breaking the other ones.

I've broken the Park levers on a couple of tubeless tires in trying to get them off a tubeless-ready rim...not the metal portion, but at the plastic tip right where the internal steel section ends. So, be wary still. I seem to have more difficulty with the removal than the installations on those combos (which doesn't bode well for field repairs requiring bead removal)

I've also now resorted to old-school steel only levers for those tires :-/

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Re: Champion clincher tire (Vittoria CS) beats old Crono CS tubular (barely) [jens] [ In reply to ]

Feb 17, 17 7:41

Post #10 of 110 (8636 views)

What, no aero?

Re: Champion clincher tire (Vittoria CS) beats old Crono CS tubular (barely) [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]

Feb 17, 17 8:48

Post #11 of 110 (8592 views)

Tom A. wrote:

jens wrote:

CCF wrote:

Yeah, but it seems nobody can actually mount a CS clincher. That's gotta be a mark against.

I've been able to do it plenty of times now. And I suck at mounting tires (and just about anything vaguely mechanical). I do use tire levers most of the time, but have managed it without once or twice. The Park levers with the metal inside are a godsend. I kept breaking the other ones.

I've broken the Park levers on a couple of tubeless tires in trying to get them off a tubeless-ready rim...not the metal portion, but at the plastic tip right where the internal steel section ends. So, be wary still. I seem to have more difficulty with the removal than the installations on those combos (which doesn't bode well for field repairs requiring bead removal)

I've also now resorted to old-school steel only levers for those tires :-/

Wow, which tubeless ready rim? I found it to be a world of difference popping them on and off a tubeless ready rim (once dropped into the center channel all the way around) vs. a Swiss Side Hadron. The Hadron is the hardest rim I have ever had to get tires on and off.

Re: Champion clincher tire (Vittoria CS) beats old Crono CS tubular (barely) [dangle] [ In reply to ]

Feb 17, 17 9:01

Post #12 of 110 (8581 views)

dangle wrote:

Tom A. wrote:

jens wrote:

CCF wrote:

Yeah, but it seems nobody can actually mount a CS clincher. That's gotta be a mark against.

I've been able to do it plenty of times now. And I suck at mounting tires (and just about anything vaguely mechanical). I do use tire levers most of the time, but have managed it without once or twice. The Park levers with the metal inside are a godsend. I kept breaking the other ones.

I've broken the Park levers on a couple of tubeless tires in trying to get them off a tubeless-ready rim...not the metal portion, but at the plastic tip right where the internal steel section ends. So, be wary still. I seem to have more difficulty with the removal than the installations on those combos (which doesn't bode well for field repairs requiring bead removal)

I've also now resorted to old-school steel only levers for those tires :-/

Wow, which tubeless ready rim? I found it to be a world of difference popping them on and off a tubeless ready rim (once dropped into the center channel all the way around) vs. a Swiss Side Hadron. The Hadron is the hardest rim I have ever had to get tires on and off.

The Hed Jet+ Blacks, which have a good center channel. One thing that may have contributed to the lever failure in this case, and this is one of the few drawbacks of that rim, is that the edges of the machined grooves in the brake track extend quite close to the end of the bead lip. This means that those edges tend to cut a groove in a plastic lever when drawn across them laterally, like when removing a tire bead.

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Re: Champion clincher tire (Vittoria CS) beats old Crono CS tubular (barely) [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]

Feb 17, 17 11:25

Post #13 of 110 (8522 views)

I'm about to say f it and order some of these vittoria cs's. I don't care how long it takes me to get on one if I'm saving 10+w it's worth it. If I flat I'm done anyway so don't care about dealing with it on course.

My question about this tire goes back to the discussion of it being aero or not, some are concerned with the ribbing on the tread? Do we have any definitive testing data on this?

Re: Champion clincher tire (Vittoria CS) beats old Crono CS tubular (barely) [Sean H] [ In reply to ]

Feb 17, 17 11:52

Post #14 of 110 (8506 views)

Sean H wrote:

I'm about to say f it and order some of these vittoria cs's. I don't care how long it takes me to get on one if I'm saving 10+w it's worth it. If I flat I'm done anyway so don't care about dealing with it on course.

My question about this tire goes back to the discussion of it being aero or not, some are concerned with the ribbing on the tread? Do we have any definitive testing data on this?

10+ watts? What are you comparing it to?

I should be able to roll one this weekend, so we can get another data point as to how it compares directly to a Turbo Cotton, SS, and GPTT w/latex tube.

Any aerodynamic shortfalls for tires of that construction are going to be at higher yaw angles, so the question then becomes "How fast are you?" ;-)

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Re: Champion clincher tire (Vittoria CS) beats old Crono CS tubular (barely) [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]

Feb 17, 17 12:06

Post #15 of 110 (8495 views)

Tom A. wrote:

Sean H wrote:

I'm about to say f it and order some of these vittoria cs's. I don't care how long it takes me to get on one if I'm saving 10+w it's worth it. If I flat I'm done anyway so don't care about dealing with it on course.

My question about this tire goes back to the discussion of it being aero or not, some are concerned with the ribbing on the tread? Do we have any definitive testing data on this?

10+ watts? What are you comparing it to?

I should be able to roll one this weekend, so we can get another data point as to how it compares directly to a Turbo Cotton, SS, and GPTT w/latex tube.

Any aerodynamic shortfalls for tires of that construction are going to be at higher yaw angles, so the question then becomes "How fast are you?" ;-)

Jens tests at 100 psi had the V CS at 71w & the conti TT at 83w. Then at 120 psi V CS at 55w & TT at 61w.

So at lower pressures it seems it's even better. Considering I run my tires at 85-90 psi I may be saving 15w?!?!

And I'll be at 24-25mph. But my A race's course this spring is notorious for quartering to and quartering away winds.

Re: Champion clincher tire (Vittoria CS) beats old Crono CS tubular (barely) [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]

Feb 17, 17 12:40

Post #16 of 110 (8460 views)

Sorry, another question.

If I do go with the vittoria cs, should I just go tubeless? This would be on wheels only used for racing, so don't have to swap tires or anything in between races.

Re: Champion clincher tire (Vittoria CS) beats old Crono CS tubular (barely) [Sean H] [ In reply to ]

Feb 17, 17 14:05

Post #17 of 110 (8434 views)

Sean H wrote:

Tom A. wrote:

Sean H wrote:

I'm about to say f it and order some of these vittoria cs's. I don't care how long it takes me to get on one if I'm saving 10+w it's worth it. If I flat I'm done anyway so don't care about dealing with it on course.

My question about this tire goes back to the discussion of it being aero or not, some are concerned with the ribbing on the tread? Do we have any definitive testing data on this?

10+ watts? What are you comparing it to?

I should be able to roll one this weekend, so we can get another data point as to how it compares directly to a Turbo Cotton, SS, and GPTT w/latex tube.

Any aerodynamic shortfalls for tires of that construction are going to be at higher yaw angles, so the question then becomes "How fast are you?" ;-)

Jens tests at 100 psi had the V CS at 71w & the conti TT at 83w. Then at 120 psi V CS at 55w & TT at 61w.

So at lower pressures it seems it's even better. Considering I run my tires at 85-90 psi I may be saving 15w?!?!

And I'll be at 24-25mph. But my A race's course this spring is notorious for quartering to and quartering away winds.

Careful...the wattage he reports is the "raw" wattage from the roller testing. They don't correspond to what you would experience on the road. The difference will be a fraction of that due to the "amplification" factor of the rollers.

Tubeless or not? If they're just on race wheels, and if your flat plan is just "if I flat, I'm done" as you say...then why not set up tubeless?

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Re: Champion clincher tire (Vittoria CS) beats old Crono CS tubular (barely) [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]

Feb 18, 17 16:01

Post #18 of 110 (8306 views)

So then what fraction would you expect to save?

Re: Champion clincher tire (Vittoria CS) beats old Crono CS tubular (barely) [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]

Feb 18, 17 16:34

Post #19 of 110 (8286 views)

Tom A. wrote:

Careful...the wattage he reports is the "raw" wattage from the roller testing. They don't correspond to what you would experience on the road. The difference will be a fraction of that due to the "amplification" factor of the rollers.

Tubeless or not? If they're just on race wheels, and if your flat plan is just "if I flat, I'm done" as you say...then why not set up tubeless?

All of my races are sprints and olympics... but mostly sprints where if I flat it doesn't matter if it's one minute or twenty minutes to fix: I'm off the podium. As such I've considered going tubeless and Vittoria's CS certainly seems appealing as it appears I'd pick up ~5 watts over my current GP4000S II + latex tubes combo and 10 second gains add up in a sprint...

but...

My experience thus far with road tubeless makes me really wonder if those 10 seconds are actually worth it.

Re: Champion clincher tire (Vittoria CS) beats old Crono CS tubular (barely) [EnderWiggan] [ In reply to ]

Feb 18, 17 17:10

Post #20 of 110 (8267 views)

EnderWiggan wrote:

So then what fraction would you expect to save?

Approximately 1/3 that amount for a pair (based on my recollection of his roller diameter)

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Re: Champion clincher tire (Vittoria CS) beats old Crono CS tubular (barely) [EnderWiggan] [ In reply to ]

Feb 18, 17 17:43

Post #21 of 110 (8246 views)

EnderWiggan wrote:

So then what fraction would you expect to save?

I gave some numbers in the original thread:

Jens wrote:

To put it in real world terms, with a bike+rider weight of 80 kilos and a reasonable aero position it would take the following to go 12 mps (26.84 mph):

Vittoria CS: 261.9 watts
Conti TT: 264.4 watts
Conti SS: 267.4 watts

So yeah, something like 2-4 watts. On the higher end of that range with lower pressures.

My latest book: "Out of the Melting Pot, Into the Fire" is on sale on Amazon and at other online and local booksellers

Re: Champion clincher tire (Vittoria CS) beats old Crono CS tubular (barely) [jens] [ In reply to ]

Feb 18, 17 17:54

Post #22 of 110 (8237 views)

Thanks Jens, much appreciated.

jens wrote:

EnderWiggan wrote:

So then what fraction would you expect to save?

I gave some numbers in the original thread:

Jens wrote:

To put it in real world terms, with a bike+rider weight of 80 kilos and a reasonable aero position it would take the following to go 12 mps (26.84 mph):

Vittoria CS: 261.9 watts
Conti TT: 264.4 watts
Conti SS: 267.4 watts

So yeah, something like 2-4 watts. On the higher end of that range with lower pressures.

Re: Champion clincher tire (Vittoria CS) beats old Crono CS tubular (barely) [grumpier.mike] [ In reply to ]

Feb 18, 17 20:25

Post #23 of 110 (8200 views)

grumpier.mike wrote:

Sorry to ask a dumb question, but could you clarify if your Corsa is the TLR version (the tubeless ready tire). If so, can this tire be used with a latex tube on a non-tubeless rim (older HED Jet disc wheel)?

If they ever are for sale, the Pista model would be the one to get. Listed at 45g lighter, and surely easier to install, and probably lower Crr also.

https://www.vittoria.com/tire/pista-clincher/

Re: Champion clincher tire (Vittoria CS) beats old Crono CS tubular (barely) [jens] [ In reply to ]

Feb 19, 17 2:56

Post #24 of 110 (8144 views)

Thanks for this Jens

The Old cronos tubs are certainly fast tyres, Piecing data together would point towards a larger gap that what you found.

Two thoughts:

- I've mentioned before cotton-cased vittoria's seem to get faster with age. This may well be true of other tyres too but I can only comment on vittoria vs continental and I have little solid evidence to back this up.

- Could the watts to rotate be less for the tubular 808? I suspect the answer would be yes.

Re: Champion clincher tire (Vittoria CS) beats old Crono CS tubular (barely) [jens] [ In reply to ]

Feb 19, 17 3:51

Post #25 of 110 (8124 views)

A new glueing of the Cronos could yield much better, as in less, rolling resistance. I don't think I would ride a 10 year old tubular without re-glueing it. With tubulars its all about how good the glue job is.

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