That was my rationale when I tested (on myself) the effect of focusing heavily on what is now known as level 5 back in the mid/late 1990s.

That is, I reasoned that since my LT was quite high relative to my VO2max (I was able to sustain 88% of VO2max for 75 min in this study: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3403447), to make further significant improvements I had to "raise my ceiling." After many weeks of torturing myself on the ergometer doing 6 x 5 min @ 95-100% of VO2max for 3d/wk, I recorded my highest VO2max (in L/min) ever (albeit only 0.05-0.10 L/min higher than I had been on other occasions). I then went and did the Texas state TT, and had a disappointing performance.

Jump forward a few years, and I and my then-new PowerTap fell into the habit of doing 2 x ~20 min (actually, 2 x 4 laps "hot", one easy) around an office park in Columbia, MD. Lo and behold, I saw that the power I could sustain during such efforts began to steadily increase. At that point I went back to my roots of doing lots of what is now known as "sweetspot", and the only time I have done a dedicated block of level 5 training since was when preparing for a 3 km pursuit.

ETA: I think that it is also important to realize that inducing the physiological adaptations that contribute to an increase in VO2max doesn't necessarily require training at that intensity - that is, it is possible that factors such as, e.g., cardiac hypertrophy may be maximized by higher volumes of lower intensity training. This is something I have thought about for a couple of decades, ever since the experiences described above.

That's sounds... unpleasant. No Offense Mr. Coggan. ;)

looks like mine... but with the added value where you puke at min 71

[COURSE HEADER] VERSION = 2 UNITS = ENGLISH DESCRIPTION = Tempo #2 FILE NAME = Tempo #2.MRC MINUTES PERCENT [END COURSE HEADER] [COURSE DATA] 0.00 65 5.00 65 5.00 75 15.00 75 15.00 90 60.00 90 60.00 120 62.00 120 62.00 50 65.00 50 65.00 130 67.00 130 67.00 50 70.00 50 70.00 140 72.00 140 72.00 50 75.00 50 75.00 75 90.00 75 [END COURSE DATA]

If you have your FTP set correctly, it's actually almost pleasant (to me, anyway). Basically the first half-hour or so is easy enough that I can just free-associate, and it only starts to get tiring/tiresome the last 10-20 min. Indeed, it is precisely because it is not that hard that I can face doing it day after day after day (e.g., last spring, when I practiced "UniModal^TM" training for 5-6 mo, in part just to prove a point).

Now 6 x 5 min intervals @ 95-100% of VO2max? Yeah, now that is unpleasant! In fact, so much so that when I was doing them regularly as described in my previous post, I'd start obsessing/worrying about/dreading the workout the night before, and only be able to put it out of mind when it was over.

My sentiments exactly. And both workouts have their place.

After I posted, I thought about it and I agree it's probably not as unpleasant as I initially thought. And yes... I think the last 10-20 minutes for me would be very difficult for me... probably more so mentally than physically.

I have been doing 5X5 mins 108% of FTP every week, adding an interval to that every week (i.e. 6x5, then 7X5) and they are horrible. Just horrible. But I do have a question for you:

Of course the last 1 or 2 intervals become very difficult and my power will, at best fluctuate (sometimes 10-20 watts but always staying above FTP) and at worst just steadily declines (usually last 1-2 minutes of interval) until I am consistently below FTP. Is it better to keep soldiering on and do what I can... or bag the interval altogether?

Thanks

If you're unable to train in the zone that the interval defines then it's time to bag it, in my opinion.

If you narrowly miss out on the target then take a longer rest and give it one more go. If you're obviously unable to make the goal then it's time to call it a day. (Of course if someone is unable to make the goal on the first interval, they need to redefine the intervals!)

It's usually the last interval that is the troublesome one, although I admit when I am having a "bad" training day it will be the last two. I probably should have said the rest interval between the intervals is 3 minutes.

At least/especially during higher intensity structured training, if you can't hit your (presumably rationale) target on a particular day, IMO it's time to give up and go home (see point #2: http://www.hunterallenpowerblog.com/...on.html#.VYRJIvlVhHw).

Now if this happens on a regular basis, then I think you need to revisit your entire training/recovery schedule.

One last, but often overlooked, point: if for some reason you find yourself having a super day in training, it's also often better to pack it in early. Otherwise, you can dig yourself into a deep hole that takes a while to climb back out of. IOW, going from "hero to zero to hero" all the time can get in the way of consistency/long-term progress.*

*Case-in-point: to try to pump up my power-duration curve and test the limits of the WKO4 model, last Sunday I did an hour of easy pedaling punctuated by three maximal efforts (30 s, 90 s, 150 s) and an incremental exercise test to failure. I haven't been that deep into the pain cave in quite some time, so here it is 5 d later and I'm just now feeling recovered enough to go back to training as I was before. Yes, I'm old, out-of-shape, and still coming back from an injury, but even when younger and fitter I noticed the same pattern.

I'm quite conservative but I'd probably revise the intervals to something that is achievable 9 times out of 10 (that's not to say they are easy).

Noone seems to have mentioned volume (or if they did I missed it), probably because you're already at 9-11hrs. However, a pretty sure fire way to raise your FTP is to add a few more hours in the saddle. Not sure if that's possible for you.

Anyway, if it were me I'd focus on SST with a bit of other stuff thrown in. I'd do a couple really good 2-3hr workouts at around 85-90% (these are fairly hard), one or two easier (75%) 2hr workouts, and then a fifth workout that's a longer ride.

Actually, another workout I might suggest trying, which I think Andy's been doing lately too, is something like 6-8x4' at around 110% with 2' rest intervals (IF~=0.98). I replaced a 2x20 with this and I really like it. It's mentally easier but seems to be just as good if not better. I fill out the ride to 2hrs with 75%.

This is the exact workout my coach had me doing once a week for 5-6 weeks early in the season. I came to dread the night before and had to start treating like an FTP test to get motived for it. Along with some 90% longer intervals, this helped me push my FTP from from 231 to 249, almost 3.6 W/kg.

Thanks. That helps a lot. Given our mini discussion inside this thread I went back and checked the power files for these type of interval workouts. On almost everyone the average power for the intervals including the final interval was +/- 4 watts of target. There were two exceptions: The first time I attempted this type of workout this season (I faded bad on the last interval) and the time I did this type of workout after being sick for over a week (the last two intervals were crap and I should have stopped when I saw I realized what was going on).

Thanks for the info... I will now be better prepared in the future.

If you want to bust through a plateau try 40/20 intervals. 40s on at 120-125% of FTP/ 20s easy spin, repeat for 8-10 minutes. Its the last few 40s of the set that kill you but the aerobic/anaerobic combination stimulus seems to rapidly improve lactate tolerance and boost FTP performances within a few workouts.

Here is a 4x10 I did last summer: https://www.strava.com/activities/183054079

---

Professional Athlete: http://jordancheyne.wordpress.com/ http://www.strava.com/athletes/145340

Coaching Services:http://www.peakformcoaching.com/

Last year, training for duathlons, after several months of sweat-spot (mostly upper-L3 lower-L4) I changed to a weekly session of "Seiler intervals" (4x8'Rest2' best effort) alternated with 8x4'Rest1' best effort for variety and reached all time max FTP (3.9watts/kg at 51yo) rather quickly, which was a nice surprise.

---

Ale Martinez
www.amtriathlon.com

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10331896

Closest I've done would be 8 x 5 min on, 1 min off, targeting an IF of ~1 for the entire session (minus w/u and c/d). I do these occasionally for variety's sake (or recently test some NIRS ideas), but haven't done a dedicated block of them to speak to their perceived efficacy.

I worked 12 weeks last summer with adding volume where I was 12-13 hours on the bike. 2 Threshold, 1 long and 2 filler rides. Power was flat all of last summer

I seemed to dig myself in a hole and it took a while to come back out of it.

Thanks for the suggestion, perhaps an up/down approach of more volume instead of 6X2 weeks of digging would be better.

jaretj

I did a workout the other day that involved 2x9mins at ~115%FTP.
What's the consensus on this?

Now that is something I have not done in quite some time, years ago (2009) I did the 30/30's but didn't really spend enough time to get an adaptation from them. I distinctly remember hating them :P Probably cuz they were working well. :)

Thank you for the suggestion.

jaretj

Those Seiler intervals I've never done. Sounds like a spirited group ride where I do most of the work for that time period.

Thanks for the idea.

jaretj

8X5' 1' rest targeting IF of ~1 is one of my Tuesday workouts and I've done it many times.

jaretj

So just out of curiosity who posted this to the TARWAPM FB page (May 16)? "6 x 5:00/2:30 @ 110% of FTP"

I did, but thought you were doing yours at a lower intensity (and I at a higher one), so didn't make the connection.

I aim for 110% work interval with 4mins on/2mins off, but I adjust the intensity to make it so the last one is hard, so I usually end up doing a bit more than 110% on the work period. Seems pretty similar but not exactly the same. I got mine from one of the recent polarized training studies (the one that tested 4m, 8m, and 16m work intervals against threshold training -- sorry don't have the cite handy).