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Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [chrisyu] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for the info, Chris (I actually hadn't even noticed there were duplicate runs done later on in the schedule -> looks like ~1% deltas or so). Your answers and the repeat runs help me to put these results in context. Nice work, and thanks for sharing!

Jordan, out of curiosity, what is your shoulder width to hip width ratio while riding?

Cheers,
-k

=================
Kraig Willett
http://www.biketechreview.com - check out our reduced report pricing
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Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [chrisyu] [ In reply to ]
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chrisyu wrote:
Hey Dev,

Long time no chat! It depends on the head down TT vs. Evade. The profile and planform shapes of the two helmets are essentially identical, and we know the vents are near 0 added drag so the only major differences are the ear flaps and tail on the TT. Depending on how head down is "head down" and how arched the back is, we've seen either test fastest depending on the athlete. I'd have to dig through everyone we've tested, but if I had to guess, I'd say the two test pretty close in the head down position for most people.

Hope that helps

First of all, congrats on closing in towards finishing the second degree. If you are working and doing it at night school and trying to write a thesis that is a brutal stretch. I remember trying to do that thinking I'd crank my thesis off in 6 months, and it ended up taking me 2 more years!!!
Here is the best shot of my arched back and head down.


I was going to pick up an Evade because it sounds like the best all conditions helmet but may wait for the TT. By the way, how do you get the drag down for the Evade vents to close to zero. Is this because there is a "pass through" effect, and thus the Evade has less "virtual frontal" than its shape indicates (ie close to laminar airflow through the vents and out the other end?). If not the vents should create some turbulence and resultant drag?
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Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [bwain] [ In reply to ]
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bwain wrote:
Do shaved arms test better? Pits too?

Yes, shaved arms test faster.

Shaved pits? I guess it depends on how hairy you are. And, of course, if you have a sleeved suit or not. I generally shave there too, mostly because for wetsuit swims, I find that wetsuits - with a sleeveless kit - pull on armpit hair. And for a non-wetsuit swim, well, it certainly can't hurt.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [dwesley] [ In reply to ]
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dwesley wrote:
Jordan, what areas on the kit have you found most critical for aerodynamics? No kit will fit everyone the same way, and I'd imagine poor fit could easily trump the particular aero qualities of a kit (just like in bike fits).

Any typical problem areas should we be aware of? I'd imagine bunching up around the shoulders would be detrimental, and many kits tend to crease around the hip.

I wish I had an answer for you. I'm still very much in the learning phase with these sleeved kits. Mark said that basically it's arms/shoulders/upper back. The obvious stuff. But of course anywhere that it fits poorly could be a problem.

But Mark or Chris really are the best people to ask about this. Or Jim from ERO.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [BikeTechReview] [ In reply to ]
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BikeTechReview wrote:
Thanks for the info, Chris (I actually hadn't even noticed there were duplicate runs done later on in the schedule -> looks like ~1% deltas or so). Your answers and the repeat runs help me to put these results in context. Nice work, and thanks for sharing!

Jordan, out of curiosity, what is your shoulder width to hip width ratio while riding?

Cheers,
-k

I have no idea.

Does this help?



"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Yea, hard to say even with the photo. Like I mentioned, my best educated guess would be it'll be super close between the two helmets with that head orientation.

The vents on the Evade was a LONG project. To boil it down, there is enough channeling and exit area for the front vents to not cause additional drag (and they are shaped to not disrupt flow over the outer shell shape). You have to remember that airflow will stagnate on the front of the helmet whether there are vents or not (with vents, part of the flow stagnates on your head instead). The key is what happens after that. The rear vents are placed and shaped (more scoop like) carefully. You'll notice that there's an absence of vents over the midsection of the helmet - this was by design.

Best,

Chris Yu
Applied Technology
Specialized Bicycle Components
@chrisyuinc
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Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [dwesley] [ In reply to ]
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We always say the low hanging fruit is with fit and usually the eyeball test is good enough for that. It's like a tailored suit - your eye will know when something fits well.

After that, we're talking about panel shapes, seam placement, fabric textures, trip features, etc... and generally those are much more athlete dependent. Wrinkles are not always a symptom of a poor testing suit. Obviously too many of them would point to a poor fitting suit, but we have tested some fast suits that have a wrinkle here or there on certain athletes.

As a general rule of thumb, a "good" suit will be pretty good on almost everyone (and a "bad" suit will be pretty bad on almost everyone). To choose the best among the good suits usually requires testing the specific person.


dwesley wrote:
Jordan, what areas on the kit have you found most critical for aerodynamics? No kit will fit everyone the same way, and I'd imagine poor fit could easily trump the particular aero qualities of a kit (just like in bike fits).

Any typical problem areas should we be aware of? I'd imagine bunching up around the shoulders would be detrimental, and many kits tend to crease around the hip.

Chris Yu
Applied Technology
Specialized Bicycle Components
@chrisyuinc
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Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Dittos on the sharing. Although not related to clothing, what wheels and tires are you choosing? Along with that what tubes and at what pressure are you running them? Thank you.
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Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [TPerry] [ In reply to ]
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For Kona:
808 front & rear. Carbon clincher.

For everything else:
808 front and Super9 rear. Carbon clincher.

Tires:
on 808: GP4000S 23mm
on Super9: GP4000S 25mm

Tubes:
Vittoria Latex 19-23mm
23mm @ 105psi
25mm @ 95psi

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Why do you run a wider tire with the disc?

blog
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Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [stevej] [ In reply to ]
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Discs have less vertical compliance. They are also more aerodynamically forgiving of tire choice.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Rappstar wrote:
For Kona:
808 front & rear. Carbon clincher.

For everything else:
808 front and Super9 rear. Carbon clincher.

Tires:
on 808: GP4000S 23mm
on Super9: GP4000S 25mm

Tubes:
Vittoria Latex 19-23mm
23mm @ 105psi
25mm @ 95psi

Jordan, is your choice of tire based on aerodynamics, rolling resistance, puncture resistance, or all 3? I know this tire tests pretty well on these parameters, but I'm curious which other ones you've tested? Also, can you give some color on your choice of tire pressure?
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Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Our Win Tunnel video for this week is a tour of the facility with a few more light details and specs.

Win Tunnel Tour

Mark

--
Mark Cote
MITAerobike
Specialized Bicycle Components
Last edited by: MITaerobike: Jun 17, 14 18:59
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Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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How about aero shoe covers. Seems like it would be fairly easy to have them rolled up over the toebox and pull them up later.
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Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [MITaerobike] [ In reply to ]
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MITaerobike wrote:
Our Win Tunnel video for this week is a tour of the facility with a few more light details and specs.

Win Tunnel Tour

Mark

Very cool. Have you guys ever considered including wind tunnel time if someone purchases a "super bike" from you guys? I could see that being a good selling point.
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Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [sharkGu] [ In reply to ]
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sharkGu wrote:
Rappstar wrote:
For Kona:
808 front & rear. Carbon clincher.

For everything else:
808 front and Super9 rear. Carbon clincher.

Tires:
on 808: GP4000S 23mm
on Super9: GP4000S 25mm

Tubes:
Vittoria Latex 19-23mm
23mm @ 105psi
25mm @ 95psi

Jordan, is your choice of tire based on aerodynamics, rolling resistance, puncture resistance, or all 3? I know this tire tests pretty well on these parameters, but I'm curious which other ones you've tested? Also, can you give some color on your choice of tire pressure?

All three. But with a bias towards aero & Crr first. Puncture protection is a factor, though not to the same degree

Tire pressure comes mostly from Tom A., but with some advice from SRAM and Conti thrown in as well. That's pretty much what they are recommending these days. A lot of it is the shift to wider wheels, and I think some of it is also tire quality as well. But it just seems that the recommended pressures keep dropping.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [theKAISER] [ In reply to ]
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theKAISER wrote:
How about aero shoe covers. Seems like it would be fairly easy to have them rolled up over the toebox and pull them up later.

Depending on the shoe, they may actually not offer much - if any advantage. Versus the S-Works Road shoes, you'd need to run the non-permeable rain covers to see any benefit at all, and those are HOT (and not easy to "roll on"). And even then, you're not seeing a significant gain. The S-Works road shoes have this sort of "slick" material that's quite fast. But BOAs are low profile. And the shoe itself is low profile. It's a FAST shoe.

Oh, as an aside, I also asked about gloves. Mark said he's never found any gloves that *improve* aerodynamics.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [MITaerobike] [ In reply to ]
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MITaerobike wrote:
Our Win Tunnel video for this week is a tour of the facility with a few more light details and specs.

Win Tunnel Tour

Mark

Mark, Amazing work on the tunnel!

What do you or Chris think is the reason that shields on a helmet often increases drag?
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Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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 Mark, have you done any testing of the Giro Empire shoe? I'd be curious if that is more or less aero than the S-Works shoe....not that it would be a great choice for triathlon.
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Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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How much do you weigh?
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Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [Mat Steinmetz] [ In reply to ]
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Matt, thanks for all of the info on the suit. From your experience, did you and how was it swimming with it on?

Thanks

https://twitter.com/mungub
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Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [mungub50] [ In reply to ]
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Rappstar, are those stickers on your helmet/bike or are they custom paint type graphics?
If they're stickers, do you think they effect drag in any measureable/significant way?
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Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [arca_tern] [ In reply to ]
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Stickers. And I do not think they affect drag in any meaningful way. If I was super badass, I'd maybe coat them with some awesome textured coating and place them in strategic locations to improve drag. But I am not that awesome...

My basis for stickers not affecting drag is based on Zipp's testing of their wheels with/without stickers.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Oohh! Didn't know they'd done such a test. Link?
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Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Rgreat race in the heat in Texas today. I have to say, I noticed you were in the Pearl Izumi octane. How did it do in the heat and how did it feel on the run?

If you go back through Austin, you should hit up salt lick BBQ for the post race feast.

https://twitter.com/mungub
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