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Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [dongustav] [ In reply to ]
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dongustav wrote:
Question - when pulling up the sleeves on a tight-sleeved suit like the octane, do you punch yourself in the mouth nearly every time like I do? I split my lip open once a week getting into my castelli aero race jerseys. But seriously, would you race with the octane suit and try to pull it on in T1 considering how difficult it might be over wet arms?

I wouldn't "try it" in a race. I'd have practiced it enough times in training that I would have a reasonable expectation of precisely how long it would take me to pull on. It *should* save 2-3min over 180km. But I would say that if took me any longer than a MAXIMUM of an additional 30 seconds to get on (versus a suit that required no additional time), I would not wear it.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [Nick_Barkley] [ In reply to ]
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I PM'd you with the link to this topic, not sure how that is misconstrued as trolling............ But your statement was that (in case you missed the quotation) was that the evade wasn't cheap or fast...........do I need to link up your quote again?

Nick_Barkley wrote:
shivermetimbers wrote:
Rappstar wrote:
shivermetimbers wrote:
any tunnel data on the evade? There are several twitchers in here who don't think it's aero.............


And they would be wrong. I published my findings on that helmet last september. 5w slower than the McLaren, which is pretty amazing.


Nick_Barkley wrote:
shivermetimbers wrote:
/Evade


hardly cheap or fast. pretty much ultimate fail.


1. Stop PMing stupid comments, troll.
2. The McLaren is 5w faster than the Evade.
3. The Giro A2 often tests faster than the McLaren.

"I would definitely smell her seat after a century ride"
Rappstar wrote:
That might be the post of the year right there.
Last edited by: shivermetimbers: Jun 12, 14 9:21
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Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [shivermetimbers] [ In reply to ]
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The Evade is $250 plus tax. It's slower than the A2 for most people. Yes it does fail in terms of bang/buck.

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...rch_string=;#5118117

Last edited by: Nick_Barkley: Jun 12, 14 9:25
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Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [Nick_Barkley] [ In reply to ]
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I got mine from the LBS for under $200.........try again. Don't start back peddling now, that's not what you said originally! I can't believe people actually pay you for bike fit services.......

and for the record, you were the first to cast out the insults:


Home: Messages: Re: you just got destroyed by RappRe: you just got destroyed by Rapp
From: Nick_Barkley
Date Sent:
Jun 12, 14 9:14
Learn to read, moron.


"I would definitely smell her seat after a century ride"
Rappstar wrote:
That might be the post of the year right there.
Last edited by: shivermetimbers: Jun 12, 14 9:34
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Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [USPro Tri] [ In reply to ]
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USPro Tri wrote:
Jordan, curious if you happen to know what helmet size(s) were tested on the Evade?

My shop and I noticed when comparing the M vs L a substantial difference in the exterior size of the Evade (much bigger difference than expected). Some athletes like Jesse chose the Evade, but wondered how/if fit really impacts that? The Large looks huge/bulbous on me, wereas on some guys it fits better and looks really sleek. Evade has 3x sizes, whereas most aero tailed helmets often have just 1 or 2 sizes

I don't have a choice but to go with the Large if I do Evade, but other tailed aero helmets "look" faster on me fit-wise. Perhaps this is a Mark question, I'd guess he has tested people over various size helmets

We tested all sizes and certifications (CPSC, CEN, Asia - S, M, L) on probably about 50ish athletes over the past year. Generally we do a comparison versus either a TT helmet or two and the Prevail. For good measure often throwing a few competitor helmets in there.

The Large is "bigger" but is proportionately shaped for aerodynamics. It still works as it's designed and offers a similar advantage versus a M vs. M or S vs. S, etc.

I won't use Watts because this means so many different things to different riders. But time saved works out well regardless of rider speed (to within a handful of seconds) - The rough median benefit of an Evade versus a Prevail is 45 seconds saved over 40 km. This is generally true per helmet size and head/shoulder/back position.

Mark

--
Mark Cote
MITAerobike
Specialized Bicycle Components
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Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [Nick_Barkley] [ In reply to ]
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Nick_Barkley wrote:
shivermetimbers wrote:
Rappstar wrote:
shivermetimbers wrote:
any tunnel data on the evade? There are several twitchers in here who don't think it's aero.............


And they would be wrong. I published my findings on that helmet last september. 5w slower than the McLaren, which is pretty amazing.


Nick_Barkley wrote:
shivermetimbers wrote:
/Evade


hardly cheap or fast. pretty much ultimate fail.

1. Stop PMing stupid comments, troll.
2. The McLaren is 5w faster than the Evade.
3. The Giro A2 often tests faster than the McLaren.

1. The McLaren is 5w faster than the Evade *FOR ME.* That's definitely not universal. Helmet selection is hugely dependent on back choice.

2. Based on what data? I'm not saying that you're wrong (or right). I'm just saying that in a thread talking about my actual data from an actual wind tunnel, your statement, "the Giro A2 often tests faster than the McLaren" doesn't really mean very much.

- how often?
- on how many different riders?
- in what tunnel?

Just to take one data point - Crowie is *NOT* under contract with helmets from Specialized. That's why he always paints them up with Road ID logoing. So if he wanted to race in the Giro A2, he could. It is the helmet he wore in 2011, before the McLaren was released. But he doesn't; he wears the McLaren. Why? BECAUSE IT IS FASTER. By about 2min over 180km (roughly 5-6w). Based on his own PUBLIC data: http://triathlon.competitor.com/...ro-helmet-test_63574

So, based on that data - which supports other data if you want to go googling:
- The McLaren is faster than the A2
- The A2 is not even clearly faster than the Evade (this based on Specialized's own testing), and the Evade is lighter and better ventilated than the A2.

You can even just search this forum for more data. Jim @ ERO has some good numbers from the Evade. It's definitely the fastest aero-road helmet, besting both the LG Corse and the Giro Air Attack in their testing as well.

If you want to make the statement that the A2 "often tests faster than the McLaren," you can. But back it up. Often - to me - means that at least 50% of the time, the A2 is faster. What does it mean to you?

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [shivermetimbers] [ In reply to ]
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5w difference at 40kph for Rapp, which if we use the normal tunnel speed of 30mph, more like ~9 or just under watts which is, per ROT tossed around here, ~36sec for a 40k. this is not a small or insignificant number
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Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Did you test with shaved legs and hairy legs like Jesse Thomas? I am interested to know if there truly is a watt benefit like he said in the Triathlete article.
His gain was 15 watts.
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Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [shivermetimbers] [ In reply to ]
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shivermetimbers wrote:
I got mine from the LBS for under $200.........try again. Don't start back peddling now, that's not what you said originally! I can't believe people actually pay you for bike fit services.......

and for the record, you were the first to cast out the insults:


Home: Messages: Re: you just got destroyed by RappRe: you just got destroyed by Rapp
From: Nick_Barkley
Date Sent:
Jun 12, 14 9:14
Learn to read, moron.


So you called him "fagboy" over some comment he made over a helmet? How old are you?


Edit: sorry not my intention to take away from the true meaning if this thread with this. Jordan thanks for doing this. Always interesting to see how different equipment changes things.
Last edited by: tucktri: Jun 12, 14 10:12
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Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [bullshark] [ In reply to ]
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bullshark wrote:
Rappstar wrote:
Looks virtually identical to mclaren. Is a new helmet. Name is just s-works TT.


any idea when it might be made available to the general public?

Jordan shouldn'tve told you it was a new helmet at all....hahaha it's OK. This is a transparent, open place. The new helmet is a major modification of the current S-Works + McLaren TT helmet.
-increased certification - CPSC, CEN
-removable face shield(s) - very much led by protour athletes asking for this - has taken us a while to get this to not be a ton slower than without. Generally what's optically clear and an effective aerodynamic leading edge are different shapes.
-increased ear "room" as the previous helmet was very tight in this area.
-completely new molding. Previous one was mega hard to make...

Aerodynamically, this new helmet is pretty much identical to the current CE S-Works + McLaren TT. Of course there are small nuances that on some athletes might show a small difference, but we've tested this on about 10 athletes now (in various sizes) and have had consistent data.

One other thing is that the TT to Evade difference on Jordan is a bit smaller than most athletes. More see a slightly bigger advantage to the TT helmet with a different back/shoulder/head relationship.

Mark

--
Mark Cote
MITAerobike
Specialized Bicycle Components
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Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [MITaerobike] [ In reply to ]
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Oh I never answered the question - the helmet will be eventually commercially available. We don't know when yet. Still in testing.

Mark

--
Mark Cote
MITAerobike
Specialized Bicycle Components
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Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [johnnybefit] [ In reply to ]
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johnnybefit wrote:
Did you test with shaved legs and hairy legs like Jesse Thomas? I am interested to know if there truly is a watt benefit like he said in the Triathlete article.
His gain was 15 watts.

I was given a "4 on the Chewbacca scale." I'm hoping that's out of 10. I mean, I had hair on my legs, but I was no Jesse Thomas... That said, I always shave for races. How much? Ankles-to-sideburns. (TMI, sorry...) So I shave both my arms and my legs, even for wetsuit legal races (where some people wonder why I shave my arms).

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Do shaved arms test better? Pits too?
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Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Rappstar wrote:
Nick_Barkley wrote:
shivermetimbers wrote:
Rappstar wrote:
shivermetimbers wrote:
any tunnel data on the evade? There are several twitchers in here who don't think it's aero.............


And they would be wrong. I published my findings on that helmet last september. 5w slower than the McLaren, which is pretty amazing.


Nick_Barkley wrote:
shivermetimbers wrote:
/Evade


hardly cheap or fast. pretty much ultimate fail.

1. Stop PMing stupid comments, troll.
2. The McLaren is 5w faster than the Evade.
3. The Giro A2 often tests faster than the McLaren.

1. The McLaren is 5w faster than the Evade *FOR ME.* That's definitely not universal. Helmet selection is hugely dependent on back choice.

2. Based on what data? I'm not saying that you're wrong (or right). I'm just saying that in a thread talking about my actual data from an actual wind tunnel, your statement, "the Giro A2 often tests faster than the McLaren" doesn't really mean very much.

- how often?
- on how many different riders?
- in what tunnel?

Just to take one data point - Crowie is *NOT* under contract with helmets from Specialized. That's why he always paints them up with Road ID logoing. So if he wanted to race in the Giro A2, he could. It is the helmet he wore in 2011, before the McLaren was released. But he doesn't; he wears the McLaren. Why? BECAUSE IT IS FASTER. By about 2min over 180km (roughly 5-6w). Based on his own PUBLIC data: http://triathlon.competitor.com/...ro-helmet-test_63574

So, based on that data - which supports other data if you want to go googling:
- The McLaren is faster than the A2
- The A2 is not even clearly faster than the Evade (this based on Specialized's own testing), and the Evade is lighter and better ventilated than the A2.

You can even just search this forum for more data. Jim @ ERO has some good numbers from the Evade. It's definitely the fastest aero-road helmet, besting both the LG Corse and the Giro Air Attack in their testing as well.

If you want to make the statement that the A2 "often tests faster than the McLaren," you can. But back it up. Often - to me - means that at least 50% of the time, the A2 is faster. What does it mean to you?

We've been lucky enough to have a McClaren in for testing several times, including last week. I have never seen an A2 beat it that I can recall. Maybe I'm forgetting one athlete for whom it tested faster, but none come to mind at the moment.

Jim Manton / ERO Sports
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Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for the correction Jim.
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Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [MITaerobike] [ In reply to ]
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Mark: did you test out any of the different kits... specifically the Pearl Izumi? Rapp mentioned in the first comment it was a bit faster for him. Perhaps you could offer another data point.

Just as an aside, this might be a good area for Specialized to research.
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Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Mark,

Could you talk a bit more about what goes on between the repeats (pt 1,2 & pt 3,4...etc...)? time delta between end of pt1 and beginning of pt2/wind status/what does rider do?

also, just a quickie - are the reported CxA's corrected for beta?



thanks for your time,

=================
Kraig Willett
http://www.biketechreview.com - check out our reduced report pricing
=================
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Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Jordan, what areas on the kit have you found most critical for aerodynamics? No kit will fit everyone the same way, and I'd imagine poor fit could easily trump the particular aero qualities of a kit (just like in bike fits).

Any typical problem areas should we be aware of? I'd imagine bunching up around the shoulders would be detrimental, and many kits tend to crease around the hip.
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Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [BikeTechReview] [ In reply to ]
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BikeTechReview wrote:
Mark,

Could you talk a bit more about what goes on between the repeats (pt 1,2 & pt 3,4...etc...)? time delta between end of pt1 and beginning of pt2/wind status/what does rider do?

also, just a quickie - are the reported CxA's corrected for beta?



thanks for your time,

Jordan thought that during his warm up period, the first several tests, his knees were wider when pedaling than after about and hour when he got comfortable. Our tunnel tares and photos showed nothing different but we believe the deltas were due to dynamic motion. This is why we went back and re-tested a control suit and then repeated the interesting suits to make sure the deltas repeated. Of course, there IS variation to how a suit is worn and to do a proper test I always recommend we do multiple repeats where a rider has to change and then change back between suits to see if the material in the shoulders and back goes back to where it needs to be.

Jordan's individual repeats were right on (~0.001 m^2 deltas) so it was a bigger shift than data or rider repeatability. Hope this answers question #1.

For q #2 - These are body axis Cd*A reported in m^2. We test at a constant dynamic pressure. I don't know what corrections you're asking about.

Best,

Mark

--
Mark Cote
MITAerobike
Specialized Bicycle Components
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Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [MITaerobike] [ In reply to ]
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MITaerobike wrote:
bullshark wrote:
Rappstar wrote:
Looks virtually identical to mclaren. Is a new helmet. Name is just s-works TT.


any idea when it might be made available to the general public?


Jordan shouldn'tve told you it was a new helmet at all....hahaha it's OK. This is a transparent, open place. The new helmet is a major modification of the current S-Works + McLaren TT helmet.
-increased certification - CPSC, CEN
-removable face shield(s) - very much led by protour athletes asking for this - has taken us a while to get this to not be a ton slower than without. Generally what's optically clear and an effective aerodynamic leading edge are different shapes.
-increased ear "room" as the previous helmet was very tight in this area.
-completely new molding. Previous one was mega hard to make...

Aerodynamically, this new helmet is pretty much identical to the current CE S-Works + McLaren TT. Of course there are small nuances that on some athletes might show a small difference, but we've tested this on about 10 athletes now (in various sizes) and have had consistent data.

One other thing is that the TT to Evade difference on Jordan is a bit smaller than most athletes. More see a slightly bigger advantage to the TT helmet with a different back/shoulder/head relationship.

Mark

Mark, if you ride head down, will there be a less of a delta between TT and Evade?
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Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [BikeTechReview] [ In reply to ]
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Hey everyone, I've been away from ST for a while!...have been super swamped lately (something about finishing that last degree, haha).

Anyways, Kraig: thought I would jump in here on your q's (edit: Just saw Cote replied - I know he's swamped too, so I'm thinking he quickly replied about the config repeats when he saw your question. Sounds like you're asking about the point repeats?):

What happens between the repeat points varies depending on the athlete (on some occasions, we just do single point sweeps and just run more repeat configs throughout the session). Generally, we tell the athlete that they can relax, take a drink, move if necessary, etc... after the first point. Once we see they've settled back into position, we'll take the second point. If we are being very careful about something (say helmet position R&D), we'll have the athlete sit up or get off the bike and reassume the position for pt 2. With some athletes that are super dialed with their positions, and if we have a history of testing the athlete (so we have a good idea of how repeatable their position is), we'll knock through the 2 points with only a couple of seconds between - this was the case with Jordan. So really, it's just an extended time record more than a true repeat.

For the CxA reporting, Jordan's a special case. Since he's super techie, we just offered to give him a copy and paste subset of the raw data dump so the correction has not yet been applied. For normal full athlete/team reports or obviously with course simulations that I run, I'll apply a beta angle correction in those cases.

Chris Yu
Applied Technology
Specialized Bicycle Components
@chrisyuinc
Last edited by: chrisyu: Jun 12, 14 22:28
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Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Hey Dev,

Long time no chat! It depends on the head down TT vs. Evade. The profile and planform shapes of the two helmets are essentially identical, and we know the vents are near 0 added drag so the only major differences are the ear flaps and tail on the TT. Depending on how head down is "head down" and how arched the back is, we've seen either test fastest depending on the athlete. I'd have to dig through everyone we've tested, but if I had to guess, I'd say the two test pretty close in the head down position for most people.

Hope that helps

Chris Yu
Applied Technology
Specialized Bicycle Components
@chrisyuinc
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Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks so much for sharing Jordan !
One note to confirm what you say : the fastest suit in the tunnel is not always the fastest suit in a full triathlon ! I've had the Pearl Izumi Octane since summer 2012 and as much as I like to use it on the bike, it is a suit I run slow with, there is no elasticity on the side pannel and as a consequence my "compressed" chest is not an efficiently breathing chest... so while I might end up saving let's say a minute for a said distance on the bike, I might loose two on the corresponding distance for the run so it's a 1mn slower suit FOR ME.
In the end the fastest suit is the one that help you get the fastest time from start to finish, it includes time in transition as well as how good you feel running in the suit, maybe we could even include how much better you recover for your next race and so on if you are not sun burnt ;-) . I'm all for sleeved suit if it's fast and fits well, only problem is at this point I haven't found that suit. Hopefully the next generation of PI Octane suit will solve the issues I faces with the first version !
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Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [pyf] [ In reply to ]
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I haven't had a good run off the bike yet in my PI yet either. I think it causes me to over heat. It sucks too, because I love the concept of the suit.

My next big race is a hot one and I think it will see me in a desoto short sleeve riviera tri top. Way cooler for me and fits very tight. I may give up some time (and who really know for me in particular), but I will get it back on the run.

I am still toying with the idea of changing in T2.

Ironman Certified Coach

Currently accepting limited number of new athletes
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Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [Nick_Barkley] [ In reply to ]
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Nick_Barkley wrote:
Thanks for the correction Jim.

so you were wrong.....the Evade is fast, you are the moron, and your life as a bike fitter is fail.

"I would definitely smell her seat after a century ride"
Rappstar wrote:
That might be the post of the year right there.
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