Login required to started new threads

Login required to post replies

Prev Next
Re: One shot at Kona - here goes! [WX] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I probably already said this on page one but I'm too lazy to check.

you're grossly mis-priortizing your training time. you've got it all backwards really. You could probably squeeze by with 25mi per week of running and then allocate that additional time to biking.

we've already discussed your swim at length. it's going to end your day at TX, no doubt.

way more swimming, more biking. less enthusiasm and positivity and some critical thinking as to how you're really going to accomplish this. IM roll downs are littered with the weeping carcasses of guys like you, and further the back half of the marathon at Kona is littered with guys who just *knew* that they were going to go sub-10 at Kona but end up walking to 11:00.

step one: control what you can control.

WX wrote:
Bryancd wrote:
WX wrote:

Quick question: if IM Texas is in May, does it make sense for me to race a HIM 4-6 weeks in advance?


NO.


Would you include any races in the build? If so, when?

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”
Quote Reply
Re: One shot at Kona - here goes! [fierceSun] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
fierceSun wrote:
WX wrote:
left calf on the verge of cramping the entire run


This seems to be a recurring problem for you. Have you had this problem running before or is this just an off the bike issue? Possibly bike position related? Any bike position pics?

I have this thought as well. I know that I had calf cramping problems when I first started triathlons. Only seemed to happen in races. Fixed this with position changes as well as cleat placement changes.

This thread has been a great read.
Quote Reply
Re: One shot at Kona - here goes! [ericM40-44] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
ericM40-44 wrote:
I probably already said this on page one but I'm too lazy to check.

you're grossly mis-priortizing your training time. you've got it all backwards really. You could probably squeeze by with 25mi per week of running and then allocate that additional time to biking.

we've already discussed your swim at length. it's going to end your day at TX, no doubt.

way more swimming, more biking. less enthusiasm and positivity and some critical thinking as to how you're really going to accomplish this. IM roll downs are littered with the weeping carcasses of guys like you, and further the back half of the marathon at Kona is littered with guys who just *knew* that they were going to go sub-10 at Kona but end up walking to 11:00.

step one: control what you can control.

WX wrote:
Bryancd wrote:
WX wrote:

Quick question: if IM Texas is in May, does it make sense for me to race a HIM 4-6 weeks in advance?


NO.


Would you include any races in the build? If so, when?



So here's my question... I need to run around a 3 flat marathon, which means I need to be at least a 2:40 open shape. I don't think I can do that with 25 miles per week. I agree on cutting back some of the swim to focus more on biking, but if my goal is around a 9:30, it seems like I should be able to raise my FTP to 280 in 5 months on 6-7 hours per week of biking. If so, shouldn't I keep a 40-50 mile run week to maintain my competitive advantage?
Last edited by: WX: Oct 30, 13 23:27
Quote Reply
Re: One shot at Kona - here goes! [AKCrafty] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
AKCrafty wrote:
fierceSun wrote:
WX wrote:
left calf on the verge of cramping the entire run


This seems to be a recurring problem for you. Have you had this problem running before or is this just an off the bike issue? Possibly bike position related? Any bike position pics?

I have this thought as well. I know that I had calf cramping problems when I first started triathlons. Only seemed to happen in races. Fixed this with position changes as well as cleat placement changes.

This thread has been a great read.

What kind of position and cleat changes? How'd you figure out what you needed?
Quote Reply
Re: One shot at Kona - here goes! [WX] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
WX wrote:


So here's my question... I need to run around a 3 flat marathon, which means I need to be at least a 2:40 open shape. I don't think I can do that with 25 miles per week. I agree on cutting back some of the swim to focus more on biking, but if my goal is around a 9:30, it seems like I should be able to raise my FTP to 280 in 5 months on 6-7 hours per week of biking. If so, shouldn't I keep a 40-50 mile run week to maintain my competitive advantage?


Your assumption that you can run a 3hr marathon if you're in 2:40 open shape is largely reliant on your bike fitness. That 20 minute drop means that you can ride 112 miles in the time you want and still be fairly fresh at the end. You get raise your FTP all you want, but you still need to time in the saddle to develop the IM specific bike fitness that makes you comfortable cranking out 22.5mph for 5 hours.

You can be in the best run fitness of your life, but if you're not where you need to be with your bike fitness, your run won't be even close to your expectations.



-Andrew
Last edited by: AMT04: Oct 31, 13 5:31
Quote Reply
Re: One shot at Kona - here goes! [WX] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
from one runner to another...

become a cyclist. it will help your run strength. I've run a 2:38 marathon & feel pretty strongly that I can have a solid long course run split on 3 run workouts a week. 1 long run, 1 medium length run, and a run off the bike. Make the long run count and by that I mean make the pace tough with a good bit of it quicker than your goal race pace. Say that your Ironman race pace is just over 7:00, running 10-20 with a good portion under 7's shouldn't be overly strenuous.

Your run won't make a difference if you're out of contention coming into t2 or you're out of energy.
Quote Reply
Re: One shot at Kona - here goes! [WX] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Slide your cleats back towards your heel. Puts less stress on your calves.

I wouldn't be so focused on raising my cp. Yes, that's important, but for im it's more important to be able to sustain a higher percentage of threshold for 5.5 hours. Riding at ~70% of cp isn't going to effect every single person the same way - it depends on fatigue resistance, etc. Riding at that pace is going to be really tough if you haven't been doing lots of long rides at 75-80% and tempo rides at 85-90%. Your CP goes up as a by-product, but that's not necessary the sole focus. At the end of the day, you gotta think about the specific demands of the race, not just physiological markers.

___________________
Twitter | Kancman | Blog
Quote Reply
Re: One shot at Kona - here goes! [WX] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
WX wrote:
AKCrafty wrote:
fierceSun wrote:
WX wrote:
left calf on the verge of cramping the entire run


This seems to be a recurring problem for you. Have you had this problem running before or is this just an off the bike issue? Possibly bike position related? Any bike position pics?


I have this thought as well. I know that I had calf cramping problems when I first started triathlons. Only seemed to happen in races. Fixed this with position changes as well as cleat placement changes.

This thread has been a great read.


What kind of position and cleat changes? How'd you figure out what you needed?

I moved my cleats back (I now run my cleats -shimano- as far back as they'll go) and adjusted everything else from there. In my case, cleat placement seemed to be the cause of cramping calves. From there, a good bike fit is necessary for long-course success. Without it, you'll not be able to bike to your 'potential', IMHO.
Quote Reply
Re: One shot at Kona - here goes! [WX] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
How are you doing WX? Any updates on your training?
Quote Reply
Re: One shot at Kona - here goes! [WX] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Buy a powertap rear wheel, a really old version, even wired is fine. Use that for training and gauging fitness gains. Can be had for as low as $300, if that's within your budget.

____________________________________________
Quote Reply
Re: One shot at Kona - here goes! [BoyWithACoin] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I came late to this thread. I read all 8 pages and I would love to hear how things are going.

I am also looking to Kona Qualify, but I am going about it differently. I am basically the complete opposite of WX. I just hit the 45-49 age group this year and did my first IM (Wisconsin) in 2013. I have a coach and together we are working a 5 YEAR plan to KQ. I am single, no kids and I only work 35 hours a week. I have all the time and money in the world to make this a reality. I am not looking for one and done. I am looking for a long term, lifestyle type commitment to get this goal achieved.

Keep us posted WX. The race is only a few months away and I am very interested to hear how your winter training went. I am also interested to hearing about the ramping up towards the race.

Good Luck,
Dwayne

Charity is injurious unless it helps the recipient to become independent of it. John D. Rockefeller Sr.
Quote Reply
Re: One shot at Kona - here goes! [ontheuptick] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
ontheuptick wrote:
How are you doing WX? Any updates on your training?

Sorry for the delay and thanks for your interest! I wanted to get in an FTP test before reporting back!

So this winter has been ups and downs training-wise, as expected. I put in a decent November, but then went on a honeymoon December-January (great for my relationship, not so much for training). Swimming in the ocean every day sounded good in theory. Reality consisted of a lot more room service on the beach. That being said, it's now February, no more excuses! How do I stand? Okay:

  • Swim: can hold 1:38/25scy open turns forever. Working on getting that faster, of course, so think a 1:08 IM swim is in reach (no wetsuit). Considering splurging on a swim-skin for an extra 1-2 minutes. Would hate if that was the difference between KQ and non-KQ but also feel really bad about buying the time.
  • Bike: FTP around 258-260 (20' test) for 3.85 w/kg. Planning on dropping ~4kg by race day and increasing FTP by ~5. Really working on going longer and more specificity over the next few months.
  • Run: lost a bit but am able to put in 6 miles at 6:00 pace still. Working on making 7:00 pace (my goal IM pace) feel as easy as pie.

In summary, I'm doing okay (B-?) Would've liked to be 3-5% stronger on the bike by now. Putting in 7 hours a week on the trainer - will try and bump it up another hour or so. More updates to come and good luck everyone with your seasons!
Quote Reply
Re: One shot at Kona - here goes! [WX] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Bump. Any updates here, WX?
Quote Reply
Re: One shot at Kona - here goes! [Joe Public] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Joe Public wrote:
Bump. Any updates here, WX?


Thanks for the note and I'm truly touched you care! I didn't do the 70.3 this past weekend to prioritize the IM. I have the Boston Marathon in 2 weeks but I'm running that easy (open marathon pace + 45 seconds) and not really tapering.

Since almost two months ago, I've made some improvements, despite losing some training time to a week in Nigeria (really hard to run out there, but hey, heat acclimatization!)
  • Swim: had a breakthrough last week... finally! Went from 16x100scy on 1:45 (coming in at 1:35-1:40) to 24x100 on 1:45 (coming in at 1:31-1:33). Was going to see if I could do 8x500 @ IM pace this week but ended up getting pretty bad road-rash so am staying out of the pool for a few days until it heals
  • Bike: FTP still around 260-ish. Am going longer (have done trainer rides of 4, 4.5, 5 hours since the weather has been uncooperative)
  • Run: not getting faster but have extended my long runs to 16 miles at ~6:35 pace and do them weekly. Feel pretty strong on the distance front.

I am now 5 weeks out from IMT - I completed 1 "big day" of 45' swim + 4.5 hour trainer ride + 9 miles at sub-7 pace and the run felt fantastic a few weeks ago. I'm planning on doing one more this week: 1.25hr swim + 6 hour ride + 10 mile run at pace. Any bits of feedback on what I should focus on over the next three weeks?


Thanks!
Quote Reply
Re: One shot at Kona - here goes! [WX] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Love your updates WX - keep them coming and I hope you make it. I did my first IM at end of last year and had a pretty good first outing. I don't have the experience of some others but I'll tell you what worked and didn't work for me which might or might not help you.

First off - don't do Boston! If your goal is to give it your best shot to KQ then a marathon 4 weeks out is not going to help. I get that you're intending to run it at a slower pace, think you said you're a ~2:40 marathoner so even 45secs slower is still putting you at ~3:00 hours which is going to take something out of you. Forgo Boston and focus on the IM. If you absolutely must do it, then drop the pace further and run at ~3:30 pace or slower.

I'd really focus on getting in 2-3 hard 3-4 hour rides. Personally I found these rides really beneficial for IM. I was time constrained and never rode over 4 hours in training and actually found the bike relatively easy (& I'm not a naturally stronger cyclist - swim and run are my strengths). Either way I attribute the good bike to being swim fit, the hard 3-4 hour rides and the fact I paced the bike well.

I wouldn't worry about a minute here or there in the swim - far more important you complete the swim having expended as little energy as possible and getting on the bike as fresh as possible (again this was key for me). To this end I'd focus on sets such as 10x400 @ IM pace or just below (with short rest intervals e.g. 10-20 secs). Aim is to get really fit/strong in the water - it will pay big dividends later on the bike and run.

Focus on nutrition and correct pacing during the race and in your long training simulations. Getting you're pacing and nutrition right is absolutely critical to having a good IM.

My biggest mistake was to run too fast. My experience (and I run very similar times to you) is that I went WAY too hard at the start of the IM - ran the first 10K in 42mins, went through 21K in 1:32 and faded to a 3:21. No way of knowing but I think if I'd started at my target pace I'd have run 5-10mins quicker. I think your 7:00/mile for the IM marathon is too ambitious. Start more conservatively - say 7:30/mile, if you're bike fit and don't ride too hard this is a more realistic pace.

Good luck and keep posting.
Quote Reply
Re: One shot at Kona - here goes! [HKoldtimer] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
HKoldtimer wrote:
Love your updates WX - keep them coming and I hope you make it. I did my first IM at end of last year and had a pretty good first outing. I don't have the experience of some others but I'll tell you what worked and didn't work for me which might or might not help you.

First off - don't do Boston! If your goal is to give it your best shot to KQ then a marathon 4 weeks out is not going to help. I get that you're intending to run it at a slower pace, think you said you're a ~2:40 marathoner so even 45secs slower is still putting you at ~3:00 hours which is going to take something out of you. Forgo Boston and focus on the IM. If you absolutely must do it, then drop the pace further and run at ~3:30 pace or slower.

I'd really focus on getting in 2-3 hard 3-4 hour rides. Personally I found these rides really beneficial for IM. I was time constrained and never rode over 4 hours in training and actually found the bike relatively easy (& I'm not a naturally stronger cyclist - swim and run are my strengths). Either way I attribute the good bike to being swim fit, the hard 3-4 hour rides and the fact I paced the bike well.

I wouldn't worry about a minute here or there in the swim - far more important you complete the swim having expended as little energy as possible and getting on the bike as fresh as possible (again this was key for me). To this end I'd focus on sets such as 10x400 @ IM pace or just below (with short rest intervals e.g. 10-20 secs). Aim is to get really fit/strong in the water - it will pay big dividends later on the bike and run.


My biggest mistake was to run too fast. My experience (and I run very similar times to you) is that I went WAY too hard at the start of the IM - ran the first 10K in 42mins, went through 21K in 1:32 and faded to a 3:21. No way of knowing but I think if I'd started at my target pace I'd have run 5-10mins quicker. I think your 7:00/mile for the IM marathon is too ambitious. Start more conservatively - say 7:30/mile, if you're bike fit and don't ride too hard this is a more realistic pace.


Focus on nutrition and correct pacing during the race and in your long training simulations. Getting you're pacing and nutrition right is absolutely critical to having a good IM.

Good luck and keep posting.


(edited for incorrect placement of my text)
Interesting pace advice about the marathon (in an IM), to me, it seems almost "classic" open marathon advice as well. Emotionally, it's hard to hold back when you "feel" so good. But it sure works for me!

I saw this on a white board in a window box at my daughters middle school...
List of what life owes you:
1. __________
2. __________
3. __________
Last edited by: manofthewoods: Apr 8, 14 2:20
Quote Reply
Re: One shot at Kona - here goes! [WX] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Are you racing TX?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
New Training/Racing Log - http://www.earthdaykid.com/blog --- Old Training/Racing Log - http://colinlaughery.blogspot.com
Quote Reply
Re: One shot at Kona - here goes! [WX] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I believe you will pull this off and KQ

You will bike 5:15 run 3:05 swim 1:10 and spend 5 in transition

That's 9:35 give or take a bit.

I think the only risk is if a lot of fast guys show up or if you get nutrition wrong or go to hard on the bike

The 2 latter is under your control
Quote Reply
Re: One shot at Kona - here goes! [WX] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
do some heat adaptation.
Quote Reply
Re: One shot at Kona - here goes! [SpicedRum] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
SpicedRum wrote:
do some heat adaptation.

Have you tried anything that works well? Should I just layer up and turn off the fan on the trainer? Run in sweats but drink lots of water?
Quote Reply
Re: One shot at Kona - here goes! [WX] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
WX wrote:
SpicedRum wrote:
do some heat adaptation.


Have you tried anything that works well? Should I just layer up and turn off the fan on the trainer? Run in sweats but drink lots of water?

Depending on the size of your laundry area you could run the dryer and ride the trainer in there.

John



Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |
Quote Reply
Re: One shot at Kona - here goes! [WX] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I agree that doing Boston = bad idea.

you'd be better served by training, a lot, that weekend. A couple of 275+ TSS rides with a fair bit of above IM effort in them.

it's not just running the marathon that will ding you. It's the travel to/from that wipes out a few days of training.

I've just checked into this thread. Based on the numbers you're posting KQ is a long shot. Going to Boston does not stack the odds in your favor.

If it were me and my only shot and I actually cared if I qualified or not, I'd be doing everything I could to stack the odds in my favor. Better to be a 45 to 1 vs a 50 to 1.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Last edited by: desert dude: Apr 8, 14 11:24
Quote Reply
Re: One shot at Kona - here goes! [WX] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I've followed this thread, and I'm really rooting for you. I've been trying to KQ for 3 years and have come close (30 sec - that hurt, and twice about 12 minutes, but that's an eternity). I have a very different set of tools than you, though, with 55 min swim easy with only 3 swims per week, but lifetime marathon PR of only 3:00 with a real running focus to prepare. I'll try again this summer in Whistler, but the reality is that my best shot is probably next year when I finally age out of this ridiculous 40-44 age group.

I have to agree with the others, though, that Boston is too much of a distraction. This is a key time for your bike fitness, and the time off to travel, race and recover will come at a price. You can BQ in your sleep on much less than 12 hours per week. Do it another year, it will still be there. If this is really your one shot at KQ, don't lose focus now.
Quote Reply
Re: One shot at Kona - here goes! [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
desert dude wrote:
I agree that doing Boston = bad idea.

you'd be better served by training, a lot, that weekend. A couple of 275+ TSS rides with a fair bit of above IM effort in them.

it's not just running the marathon that will ding you. It's the travel to/from that wipes out a few days of training.

I've just checked into this thread. Based on the numbers you're posting KQ is a long shot. Going to Boston does not stack the odds in your favor.

If it were me and my only shot and I actually cared if I qualified or not, I'd be doing everything I could to stack the odds in my favor. Better to be a 45 to 1 vs a 50 to 1.

Thanks Brian for your advice. Given what I'm posting, are there any benchmark (either workouts or numbers) that would give you (and me) more confidence? Pure running's easy - a half marathon ~4 weeks before is a pretty darn good predictor of potential marathon finishing times, but I think the big unknown here is how my run will do after 6 hours in the heat, including nutrition, etc. What kind of numbers would put me closer to 3 to 1 odds?
Quote Reply
Re: One shot at Kona - here goes! [WX] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
One hour swim and a 5 flat bike for starters. I'm kidding about the bike but if you don't ride 5, you are going to need a really spectacular run to be in contention.

-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
Team ZOOT
ZOOT, QR, Garmin, HED Wheels, Zealios, FormSwim, Precision Hydration, Rudy Project
Last edited by: Bryancd: Apr 8, 14 16:52
Quote Reply

Prev Next