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Re: Brett Sutton Article [ZingUK] [ In reply to ]
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ZingUK wrote:
pick6 wrote:
we don't know how many victims Sutton has had. just like with saville, no one knew til later. could be others who have never come forward. no way to say one way or the other. Not uncommon for ppl not to come forward especially when no prosecution possible after tone passes


Stupid point, Sutton is a very publis figure and people would come forward for the money if nothing else. I can easily say I don't know how many victims you have had because none have come forward.

How so? Look at that BBC case? People only coming forward now, after he's dead. Sutton doesn't have the same public power that a well known and well liked public broadcaster does, but rape and molestation victims often don't come forward due to shame. http://www.rainn.org/statistics
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [Mad Jee] [ In reply to ]
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He can hide behind whatever he wants to. At this point, he has said enough to justify his answers in this situation. Others can see and take him for what he is. If he feels the need to belittle or not actually address situations it simply further cements his stance on this issue. So I say let him be who he is going to be. There is some agenda in there that we probaly won't ever understand. I just feel sorry that the truth about sutton and his role with juniors seems to be so easily overlooked by some on here. It's that mindset and thinking that I was hoping to clarify and improve.

ETA; I just find it hard to believe we are ok with allowing sutton to so easily be in situations that have him interacting with juniors. Whether directly coaching or not, I'm shocked teamTBB gives or in the past gave him access to still interact with kids. I would think a near zero tolerance policy would be in affect within Tri coaching/team environments.

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Last edited by: BDoughtie: Jan 14, 13 13:20
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [pick6] [ In reply to ]
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pick6 wrote:
ZingUK wrote:
pick6 wrote:
we don't know how many victims Sutton has had. just like with saville, no one knew til later. could be others who have never come forward. no way to say one way or the other. Not uncommon for ppl not to come forward especially when no prosecution possible after tone passes


Stupid point, Sutton is a very publis figure and people would come forward for the money if nothing else. I can easily say I don't know how many victims you have had because none have come forward.


How so? Look at that BBC case? People only coming forward now, after he's dead. Sutton doesn't have the same public power that a well known and well liked public broadcaster does, but rape and molestation victims often don't come forward due to shame.http://www.rainn.org/statistics[/quote[/url]]

Because the BBC case is such an broad outlier, it's like suggesting every murderer has like Hitler. There are exceptions that come up from time-to-time but they are just that, very rare exceptions. What happened in the BBC also happened in a particular environment in the 1970's (generally) when people wouldn't come forward against Saville. People would certainly come forward against Sutton and if anything the Saville case would make that even more likely to happen. Do you not think at the time that the police didn't interview other swimmers in his squads? Of course they did. If you refer to my previous point about American social lens v European Social lens this is a perfect example (I'm assuming you are American here and I may be wrong, apologies if I'm wrong), we tend to give people the benefit of the doubt because of the way our system is structured, you tend not to and this is a classic example
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [ZingUK] [ In reply to ]
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A minor FYI, Johnny cash never murdered anyone. He just wrote a song about it.


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Joe

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Re: Brett Sutton Article [ZingUK] [ In reply to ]
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ZingUK wrote:
pick6 wrote:
ZingUK wrote:
pick6 wrote:
we don't know how many victims Sutton has had. just like with saville, no one knew til later. could be others who have never come forward. no way to say one way or the other. Not uncommon for ppl not to come forward especially when no prosecution possible after tone passes


Stupid point, Sutton is a very publis figure and people would come forward for the money if nothing else. I can easily say I don't know how many victims you have had because none have come forward.


How so? Look at that BBC case? People only coming forward now, after he's dead. Sutton doesn't have the same public power that a well known and well liked public broadcaster does, but rape and molestation victims often don't come forward due to shame.http://www.rainn.org/statistics[/quote[/url]]

Because the BBC case is such an broad outlier, it's like suggesting every murderer has like Hitler. There are exceptions that come up from time-to-time but they are just that, very rare exceptions. What happened in the BBC also happened in a particular environment in the 1970's (generally) when people wouldn't come forward against Saville. People would certainly come forward against Sutton and if anything the Saville case would make that even more likely to happen. Do you not think at the time that the police didn't interview other swimmers in his squads? Of course they did. If you refer to my previous point about American social lens v European Social lens this is a perfect example (I'm assuming you are American here and I may be wrong, apologies if I'm wrong), we tend to give people the benefit of the doubt because of the way our system is structured, you tend not to and this is a classic example

Read the statistics I sent you. If it's true that 54% of rapes go unreported to this day, what makes you think that there is no possibility that there is someone out there who hasn't come forward? Remember, he's had a ton of time since those people were interviewed.
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [Joe C.] [ In reply to ]
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Joe C. wrote:
A minor FYI, Johnny cash never murdered anyone. He just wrote a song about it.

Sorry my bad, I honestly never knew that. Ok Jerry Lee Lewis (far less popular I know) but still sure his CD are still around and listened to
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [ironpsych] [ In reply to ]
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Brett's identified victim was 13 years old, not 14, according to Australian sex offender list and the Sunday Telegraph (Australia).
Reference for the former: http://www.mako.org.au/temp_s.html and the latter was copied in an old tri forum exchange discussion (competitive website so I won't link).
Not an important detail f/ my point of view, unless someone intentionally upped the reported age. Outside magazine reported 14, so some source has an error.

I wonder if Brett would have less support for his continued coaching had his identified victim been a boy.

A stat you may know: What percent of victims that seek professional help report the abuse to authorities? Obviously you can't respond about those that don't seek professional help.
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [avagoyamug] [ In reply to ]
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Please read my previous post concerning the impact that this sort of crime has on "just one girl". In that post I also said the I think Sutton should be allowed to coach (not minors obviously) although the Australian governing body felt differently and likely had more information than I do. And I also said that he should be allowed to live a happy life. I felt that that post was nuanced enough to get my point across.

I made it pretty clear in that post what experiences that lead me to my current view and my opinion about Sutton and people criticizing Sutton and those that support/hire and work with him.

I think it is a wonderful thing that Mr. Bok has come to this forum to share his feelings and thoughts. And I believe them to be sincere and heartfelt and Brett Sutton is well served by having a boss and friend who believes in him so strongly. I am not sure that I have someone (outside of my family) that devoted to my success and well being. We would all be well served by having a friend like Mr. Bok

I was actually very complimentary to his wife and after rereading my post I am hard pressed to find where I personally insulted Mr. Bok.

I challenged him on some of the points he made and I think they are legitimate challenges. Perhaps it is the use of the word "distasteful" that you are reacting to, I'm not sure. I don't consider that a personal insult. I am just relating the feeling that I have (again, based on my own experiences) regarding that part of his post. Was it a bit harsh? Perhaps. I will gladly go back and edit my post to say "I take offense" or "I am a little disturbed" or "I would prefer that you not" or whatever language would be acceptable to you and others if people felt that was a personal insult.

Again, I encourage you to read my earlier post.
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [ZingUK] [ In reply to ]
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ZingUK wrote:
Joe C. wrote:
A minor FYI, Johnny cash never murdered anyone. He just wrote a song about it.


Sorry my bad, I honestly never knew that. Ok Jerry Lee Lewis (far less popular I know) but still sure his CD are still around and listened to

Well that's more apropos. Jerry Lee Lewis didn't murder anyone but his career cratered when the public learned he had married his 13 year old third cousin. He claimed he didn't realize it would be a scandal. And around that time a 24 year old Elvis took up with a 14 year old named Priscilla.


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Re: Brett Sutton Article [caf0] [ In reply to ]
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Interesting. From my point of view, the age does make a difference. Adolescence is a time of exponential development. Cognitively and sexually. Now people may have upped the age because she was 13 and 11mos at the time. But say, for instance, she was 13yrs and 1 month vs. 14 yrs and 11mos. That would be almost two yrs difference. Basically a 13 y.o. vs. a 15 y.o. The developmental stage between those two ages is quite pronounced. This may be splitting hairs to some but it is a very important detail.

All cases of abuse that involve children that are reported during treatment have to be reported to the authorities. It varies from state to state who are considered "mandatory reporters" and some states consider all citizens to be mandatory reporters and can face criminal prosecution if found they have not reported.

Many, many children to do not disclose abuse until many years later and some never really do (I recall from an earlier poster that it took many years for Sutton's victim to disclose her abuse). As I mentioned in a previous post 90% of victims are abused by someone they trust and often love so their is often a lot of confusion about what to do or depending on age if it's "really" wrong. Most children take years to figure that out and if/when they disclose it is usually in the teen years when they kinda "figured it out". It's more complicated if it's a parent/relative that they live with.

And I made the same point about the boy aspect. I agree. And if that were the case this would likely have been a one page thread full of "Oh, my God!", etc.

Edit: Adults who report abuse as a child generally do not report to the authorities as most states have a statute of limitations and most adults feel that there is no point to filing criminal charges as these cases are hard to prosecute years later. He said/she said. Although in the wake of Penn State some states are considering doing away with the statute of limitations but again very difficult for a single victim to see any good outcome from reporting past abuse to the authorities.
Last edited by: ironpsych: Jan 14, 13 9:45
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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Post of the week.

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Re: Brett Sutton Article [AlwaysCurious] [ In reply to ]
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AlwaysCurious wrote:

  • Is Sutton still manipulative, authoritarian and self-aggrandizing? The media portrays him as such, and he comes across this way in interviews and his own writing. I am curious as to what others would say. For, when we talk about reform, we are really talking about reforming the characteristics that led to the crime. And, as far as I can tell, those are the qualities that largely contributed to his crime 27 years ago. Note that remorse is very, very different than reform. And I have yet to hear anyone say that he has reformed those characteristics.

I agree 100% with this, I am not anonymous and I don't think that attacking people on Slowtwitch is the only place I get to be is a champion.

I have noticed a misunderstanding throughout this thread: Specifically, the thinking that rape is about sexual gratification. Just so everyone is clear, rape is about power not sexual gratification. Mr. Sutton did not have a problem with controlling his sexual urges (well he did have that problem too). His problem was that he became sexually aroused when he exerted power over the defenseless. And it is because of this that I considered "always curious" line of questions valuable.
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [Joe C.] [ In reply to ]
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Joe C. wrote:

Well that's more apropos. Jerry Lee Lewis didn't murder anyone but his career cratered when the public learned he had married his 13 year old third cousin. He claimed he didn't realize it would be a scandal. And around that time a 24 year old Elvis took up with a 14 year old named Priscilla.

I forgot about the whole Elvis thing, now that does open a whole can of worms as he was obviously even bigger than my gaff over Johnny Cash and not to mention Michael Jackson in more recent times.

I'm not highjacking the thread about other people or trying to deflect from BS and I will address my specific thoughts on him in the questions below but I'd like to address the questions below to Ynot, Pick6, Nab777, Tttilyheed, Camaleon, Trigirrrl, BDoughtie, TravisT and everyone else that has expressed very strong anti Sutton views and challange you to answer them honestly. I bet that half od you don't reply or come up with something to deflect answering. And please don't tell me Elvis was in a different time and underage girls didn't go to his concert. My cousin saw him multiple times 3 times underage, twice unchaperoned by an adult so if anyone had access to mnors and expressed his sexuality towards them and created an adultation culture 100 more powerful than Sutton's it would be Elvis. So my questions along with my own answers in respect to Sutton are:

1. Have any of you ever got up and made some moves to an Elvis number at a party or own and Elvis music in your collection? Wouldn't this be considered supporting him in light of what he did?

I have never been coached by Brett Sutton and have never purchased anything connected with him but if I was given the chance to do a training camp with him I certainly would.

2. Do you consider that Elvis carried out statutory rape and do you go shouting off about it every time that Elvis' name comes up?

As the legal term applies then yes I think Sutton carried out statutory rape. Some duristictions don't actually use that term but use terms like interfering with a minor or sex with an underage person. For me personally I admit I don't like the temr rape in this context. I know 4 women who have been raped at some point in their and life and many more who had sex underage (UK is the world capital of teen pregnancy - I accept the vast majority is not with 27 year old men though) and the phychological trauma for a rape that involves forced sex and is often violent is far greater than a 14 year who at least thinks she is participating willingly. Yes I know what some of you are going to shout but no I absolutely do not thing it is ok what Sutton did.

3. Do you think that Elvis should never have been allowed to perfom after raping Pracilla multiple times over many years given that this gave him access to far more minors than Sutton could ever have and given his overt sexuality towards his audience? Should he have been forced to only record behind closed doors?

I have stated many times in this thread that I don't think Sutton should be coaching minors, full stop. The fact his team has a junior squad and he coaches the then pass on his expertise to them no I don't have an issue with this nor him being in a team photo that happened to have (allegedly) a 16 year old girl in it

4. Was Elvis a paedophile?

If someone in thier 20's told me that had a 13/14 sexual partner I would sure as hell call them a paedophile so yes Sutton is a paedophile

5. Should Elvis have been jailed\punished for what he did instead of becoming an national hero still celebrated to this day?

Absolutely Sutton should have been punished but not to my or any of our liking but to the laws that apply in the country where it happened and that is what happened. He served his punishment and is moving on with life

Ok I could go on with questions, you get the idea. If your answers about Elvis are different for how you would answer about Elvis why is that? Would this not make you question your own motives and judgement capability? Is this not exactly why we have legal systems to deal with all kinds of cases? If your feelings about Elvis are different from Sutton's do you think you are a hypocrite?

I am genuinely interested to see who answers these honestly but prepared to sit back and enjoy the deathly silence I suspect from most of you and for that I will call you cowards
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [avagoyamug] [ In reply to ]
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how is 1 any less catastrophic than 500...each person has to live with it.....that's HORRIBLE justification.
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [ZingUK] [ In reply to ]
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I just turned 31 years old. Have I heard an Elvis song? Absolutely? Have I probaly hummed or sang along, absolutely. But I don't even know if I was alive during his lifetime. I'm fact I'm not even sure he was alive but I never grew up on his music.

Considering I'm in no manner associated with the music industry nor a colleague of Elvis, not really sure what the comparison is. In fact I didn't even know any info on him that you are bringing up. I just googled him and he died 5 years before I was even born.

So if you want to call me a coward, I'd ask you man up and adress me as a person and not hide behind some username. I think I deserve that respect. And you may not like my answers, I have no clue. But you want to call me a coward, atleast be man enough to tell me who is calling me a coward. I think that's only fair? If I'm a hypocrit and you want to call me that, call me that. But I've said nothing that is disrespectful that wasn't the truth, that sutton and teamTBB have already confirmed/stated. I'm anti sutton when it comes to putting him in situations that allow him to interact with children. If you feel that's unjustified then fair enough. But I won't stand by and not address the truth.

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http://www.aomultisport.com
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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BDoughtie wrote:
I just turned 31 years old. Have I heard an Elvis song? Absolutely? Have I probaly hummed or sang along, absolutely. But I don't even know if I was alive during his lifetime. I'm fact I'm not even sure he was alive but I never grew up on his music.

Considering I'm in no manner associated with the music industry nor a colleague of Elvis, not really sure what the comparison is. In fact I didn't even know any info on him that you are bringing up. I just googled him and he died 5 years before I was even born.

So if you want to call me a coward, I'd ask you man up and adress me as a person and not hide behind some username. I think I deserve that respect. And you may not like my answers, I have no clue. But you want to call me a coward, atleast be man enough to tell me who is calling me a coward. I think that's only fair? If I'm a hypocrit and you want to call me that, call me that. But I've said nothing that is disrespectful that wasn't the truth, that sutton and teamTBB have already confirmed/stated. I'm anti sutton when it comes to putting him in situations that allow him to interact with children. If you feel that's unjustified then fair enough. But I won't stand by and not address the truth.[/quote

I don't care about Elvis being dead before you were born he's still an all American hero and wondering what your thoughts are on him I said if you didn't answer the questions then yes I'll call you a coward and that is exactly what you have done, opted out so congratulations for being 100% predicable.

I am also anti Sutton when it comes to him working directly with kids and I think he's a paedophile, never said anything different. I do think though he should be allowed to coach and if his skills are past on through others to kids to help them develop then I'm also all for that, he is giving something back. If he wanted to continue doing what he did he would surely take a job that's under the radar not flying straight in the face of it, that's just stupid and Sutton's not stupid.

My real name is neither here nor there in this discussion, you just raise that as a smoke screen but if you really want for ST slueths it's easy enough to work out who I am anyway, there are plenty of posts with enough information to on race, my nationality (the UK part gives it away) my age group and where I live to work it out.
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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And by the way I do give you credit for at least replying even if you didn't answer the questions, you are the one I thought most likely would. It will be interesting to see what we get from the others
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [ZingUK] [ In reply to ]
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Strange that you are attacking people because they don't like child molestors but I'll still respond. I'm 1 year younger than Brooks and I could respond almost the same way. I don't think I know one Elvis song and I'm not heavily involved in the music world like I am the tri world. That said if I were I would respond the exact same way I have to Sutton in regards to his actions. There is no industry or profession where the repeated rape of a 13 or 14 year old is ok

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Re: Brett Sutton Article [ZingUK] [ In reply to ]
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So where do you draw the line? You say you are cool with sutton being in an photo shoot with an -*alleged* minor. Where do you stand on sutton being asked by another coach and allowed by teamTBB to travel to brazil and interact in the same room with 30 kids? Are you cool with that? So I guess your towing the company line that teamTBB shares that as long as he isn't "directly" coaching all is good.

I appreciate you sharing your views. I'll simply say this, the info I've shared has enlightened alot of people, and sounds like most didn't realize he was still interacting with juniors in the manners that teamTBB has shared through their own info. You have your views and please discredit me all you want, all that shows is the real issue certainly wants to be overlooked. From the comments we have read, I think people now see the issues that are still at play in some capacity.

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Re: Brett Sutton Article [ZingUK] [ In reply to ]
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ZingUK wrote:
so if anyone had access to mnors and expressed his sexuality towards them and created an adultation culture 100 more powerful than Sutton's it would be Elvis.

Did it occur to you that the reason you will receive deathly silence is because your question is preposterous?
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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BDoughtie wrote:
So where do you draw the line? You say you are cool with sutton being in an photo shoot with an -*alleged* minor. Where do you stand on sutton being asked by another coach and allowed by teamTBB to travel to brazil and interact in the same room with 30 kids? Are you cool with that? So I guess your towing the company line that teamTBB shares that as long as he isn't "directly" coaching all is good.

I appreciate you sharing your views. I'll simply say this, the info I've shared has enlightened alot of people, and sounds like most didn't realize he was still interacting with juniors in the manners that teamTBB has shared through their own info. You have your views and please discredit me all you want, all that shows is the real issue certainly wants to be overlooked. From the comments we have read, I think people now see the issues that are still at play in some capacity.

If he is providing something positive for the 30 kids in that room and there is absolutely no danger to them with other adults there then yes I can live with that. I wouldn't be cool with him regularly interacting and coaching a junior squad on a regular basis though, absolutely not.

Can I ask where you draw the line? You seem to think because Elvis died before you were born that's not a problem or because he wasn't in your sport it doesn't matter to you. So do you net care about the catholic church systematically abusing children for decades because it was before you were born? If a maths teacher had a relationship with his 13 year old pupil would that be ok because it happened in the 70's (a true story from my high scholl BTW, I'm a bit older than you). The bottom line is we all care about these things and don;t want them to happen but you have an incredibly black and white hard line attitude when there has been absolutely no evidence Sutton has gone anywhere near a minor since he went to court and he's in plain view where everyone can see what he is doing. I believe in giving people a chance to rehabilitate themselves and so long as he's supervised and, as I said above, not in regular or sole contact then his expertise can help develop youth athletes and so at least give something back.

I don't want to discredit you at all, by using the Elvis analogy I just want all of those who have screamed so loudly against Sutton and Jordan, Brandon Jonnyo etc to maybe look at their own values and think if they are being fair or if perhaps there is some room for manoever. If that put you in a spot where you felt discredited in some ways that's good because it has you thinking but my apologies as discredit is certainly not my intention, education is. I have a son close to your age so obviously a lot older and the wolrd seems a less black and white place the older you get
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [ZingUK] [ In reply to ]
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I don't want to search who you are. I would assume you'd have enough respect for our discussion that when you make it "personal" you atleast stand behind that. I've not said anything negative about sutton, teamTBB or you or anyone. I've stated my thoughts, brought up facts that sutton and teamTBB willingly talk about. So again,I was hoping for a civil discussion, and ill just let your posts speak for the manner in which you gone to, to make/prove a point. And that's all good, I've stuck to the facts in this situation and would hope you could atleast respect that. But if you need to call me a coward, call me a coward. I am happy with the fact that this thread has opened alot of eyes and its evident by who is and isn't posting anymore. So in that manner, I think we've been able to shed more light into teamTBB and sutton and how they are handling his interactions with juniors in the sport.

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Re: Brett Sutton Article [ajthomas] [ In reply to ]
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ajthomas wrote:
ZingUK wrote:
so if anyone had access to mnors and expressed his sexuality towards them and created an adultation culture 100 more powerful than Sutton's it would be Elvis.


Did it occur to you that the reason you will receive deathly silence is because your question is preposterous?

Nope, not in the slightest. I'm asking people about thier priciples across the board. Why is it preposterous, is Elvis' rape of Precillas somehow different from Suttons? Isn't that me asking about the same thing? Perhaps one's an athlete and the other is a singer but otherwise the same as far as I can work out. So no, you reply is again trying to deflect actually answering. Thank you also for being redictable
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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BDoughtie wrote:
I don't want to search who you are. I would assume you'd have enough respect for our discussion that when you make it "personal" you atleast stand behind that. I've not said anything negative about sutton, teamTBB or you or anyone. I've stated my thoughts, brought up facts that sutton and teamTBB willingly talk about. So again,I was hoping for a civil discussion, and ill just let your posts speak for the manner in which you gone to, to make/prove a point. And that's all good, I've stuck to the facts in this situation and would hope you could atleast respect that. But if you need to call me a coward, call me a coward. I am happy with the fact that this thread has opened alot of eyes and its evident by who is and isn't posting anymore. So in that manner, I think we've been able to shed more light into teamTBB and sutton and how they are handling his interactions with juniors in the sport.


I'm also posting my views and just trying to understand where other people's views come from. Belive I do respect your viewpoint and I agree with you 90%
Last edited by: ZingUK: Jan 15, 13 12:37
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [ZingUK] [ In reply to ]
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ZingUK wrote:
BDoughtie wrote:
I don't want to search who you are. I would assume you'd have enough respect for our discussion that when you make it "personal" you atleast stand behind that. I've not said anything negative about sutton, teamTBB or you or anyone. I've stated my thoughts, brought up facts that sutton and teamTBB willingly talk about. So again,I was hoping for a civil discussion, and ill just let your posts speak for the manner in which you gone to, to make/prove a point. And that's all good, I've stuck to the facts in this situation and would hope you could atleast respect that. But if you need to call me a coward, call me a coward. I am happy with the fact that this thread has opened alot of eyes and its evident by who is and isn't posting anymore. So in that manner, I think we've been able to shed more light into teamTBB and sutton and how they are handling his interactions with juniors in the sport.


I'm also posting my views and just trying to understand where other people's views come from. Belive I do respect your viewpoint and I agree with you 90%

The reason Jordan et al have gone quiet is they have professional reputation to protect. I would bet you $100 they haven't particularly changed thier views 180 degrees otherwise they would come on and say as much.....silence does not provie anything one way or the other, that's why silence is so powerful

In this case though silence does nothing to protect their reputations, it only lowers them even further that they will continue to lend their tact support even in light of the information that has come out on this thread.

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