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Re: Brett Sutton Article [DaveyHoy] [ In reply to ]
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Sutton's right - let the kids play. They'll play with joy and imagination which is it's own worthwhile result. Feeling the beauty of the game is something that won't happen in over structured practice sessions at early ages

It's my view that we have sucked the life, the elation and joy out of kids sports. I've been a passive side-line observer myself the last few years, as my son has worked his way through and I have coupled that with my own experience a generation ago.

What is astonishing is that in Canada, we have this absolute frenzy of organized kids sports that starts up for middle and upper middle class kids( that right there is saying something), at around ages 6 - 7. They progress though house-league and rep/club programs in various sports. What is startling is the attrition rates along the way, to the point that when you reach the late teen years the two end products are:

1. If you talk to high performance national team level coaches in many sports they tell you that one of the problems is very small talent pools to pick from

2. Statistical evidence that by-and-large most teenagers by this age, have almost zero physical activity in their days/weeks.

So what was that frenzy of activity at an earlier age for? We got really nothing out of it!





Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [Mad Jee] [ In reply to ]
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Mad Jee wrote:
Pursuant to your cop question. If the guy is banned from LAPD for excessive force, am I okay with him joining the NYPD as a clerk? I dunno. I'm not saying that's a direct analogy, since Sutton is in a very similar role, except for not coaching minors.

Again, why are you choosing to make analogies that are not analogous? You even said, "I'm not saying that's a direct analogy", so then why are you making it? Sutton violated the trust of his position and is now maintaining that same position just before a different group. Let's make this analogy as simple as possible, let's say our LAPD cop sexually assaulted a minor during the course of an investigation, should be allowed to transfer to the NYPD as long as he doesn't work on any cases involving children?

- should he banned from coaching minors?

I think everyone agrees the answer here is yes.

- should he banned from coaching entirely?

I think yes, you seem to think no. He violated the trust of his position, he doesn't get to keep that position just because it's before a different audience.

I think you and many are missing the point here even although many are pointing it out then in some sense arguing against themselves. What Sutton was guilty of was betraying a position of trust over a minor and he should never be allowed to do that again and as such should never be allowed to work with minors, eg school teacher, scout leader, peadatric nurse etc. The actual job function he did at the time in some ways is academic, it was merely a route that gave him access to the underage girl. For me I have no issue with him coaching adults who are aware of his past, that is their choice to work with him and they are certainly not vulnerable.

On the issue of the seriousness of the crime and redemption (and yes I do believe it was of the utmost serious nature) I will use another analogy. Would you view a 20 year old who stole a Hershy bar (and please I'm not comparing rape with stealing a hershy bar just making a point of range of crime) with a sophisticate bank robber and think they should get the same punishment? The law in civilised societies doesn't think so and quite rightly to. What happened to the poor girl in India recently with rape and murder is degrees more heinous than what Sutton did and the law will see it that way as well and hopefully the perpetrators will get due punishment. Again I'm in no way defending Sutton but he was punished as the law in a civilised democratic society saw fit and the focus of any decent society should be rehabilitation of offenders so they never re-offend and, at least in Sutton's case, that seems to have been successful. He committed a horrible crime, was punished and will carry the stigma for the rest of his life but he is trying to get on with his life as best he can without being in a position to do the same again.

In reply to Jordan, as so often on this board people get slaughtered for certain statements. It appears over the last few years that sadly America has become incredibly polarised (abortion, gun control, political affiliation etc) and there is no room for shades of grey or compromise. Unfortunately your views have been victim of this polarisation as with so many conversations on this forum which in many instances just makes it an unpleasant place to visit. Whether I agree or disagree with your views (and I'm a bit of both) I will at least consider them and respect your views and I understand you have it in you to give someone a second chance. Everyone can make a mistake in life, heaven help us if the world tunred it's back on us completely and people refused to forgive. Note to the flamers, I'm saying forgive NOT forget, two very different things.
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [ironpsych] [ In reply to ]
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Inherent to the concept of consent is understanding the impact and implications of the act to which you are consenting.
Legal or not (always a handy excuse), NO 14 yo girl can reasonably consent to such an act with a person whom she (assuming) admires, respects , wishes to please and , to some degree, fears.
As a female, I truly believe that there is never, ever any excuse, reasoning or justification for such an act as was perpetrated upon this child.

And to the poster who attempted to minimize the impact by saying that the victim (not a word I often use) is now married and successful : Shame on you.
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Except that he still coaches minors. It's right on the TBB website. Here's a picture of him with the Philippines team.


The girl behind him is 16. Two of the boys are 17. The President of the team describes it here: "We are very pleased to have top foreign athletes like Caroline Steefen, Ali Fitch, Matt O'Halloran and David Dellow in Alaska teamTBB. But we also want to augment this team with promising young Filipino athletes who will hopefully be able to represent the country at international competitions in the near future. Obviously having a top caliber coach in Brett Sutton helps make this goal a real possibility."

In fact, kids' projects seems to be a major focus of Team TBB, as shown on their "Our Activities" page.

In Brazil, "Together with Cali Amaral, president of the Association of Southeast Triathlon (ASTRI) in Brazil, and world renowned triathlon coach Brett Sutton, teamTBB is working to make a real difference in the lives of underprivileged youths in this country through the sport of triathlon." This page describes how one of their members "who not too many years ago was just another kid helped by a social project, then discovered by a triathlon coach at the tender age of 15."

Here's where Brett talks about his involvement, and going to "this little school type building and to 30 or so smiling little kids running around having a great time."

In short, he both coaches minors and has worked his way into a position of power and authority over them.

To those who say it's fine for pro triathletes to be coached by him, because they're adults and "know what they're getting into and can look after themselves"...it appears that some of the money these pros pay goes toward giving him access to minors in an "official" capacity. Are you okay with that?
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [AlwaysCurious] [ In reply to ]
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Well there we go.

Jordan, others, care to comment?

Sutton got exactly what he wanted from Jordan, a well respected figure in the sport with an especially large voice due to his role here with Slowtwitch coming out in support of him. Unfortunately, it has just left me to support Jordan less, not Sutton any more..



Portside Athletics Blog
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [Mad Jee] [ In reply to ]
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Wow. How anybody can defend the guy after seeing that is beyond me. He keeps right on coaching and interacting with minors like he never did anything. The door is open for Jordan and the others who try the justify this guy's involvement in the sport to step back but I doubt they will do it.

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Re: Brett Sutton Article [Mad Jee] [ In reply to ]
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i been out of the TBB Team after 2009. here's what i know

of the picture posted of team TBB alaska, brett dosnt coach the Filipino. They are part of a developpement team with the a philippine coach but like the brazil team and others, it s other local coach that are responsable for those team.

for the 4 months i was in the philipines, the local athlete werent allowed at our session, only the adulte pro team is supervised by Brett. I do not know if it as chance since but i douth it as. the pro team take all the time of brett so developpement coach do the work with others. so in resume, we had about no contact with those developpement team other than a few pictures photo shoot for promotion.

i have work with brett sutton for 1 year, learn a lot from him, he always as been a gentlemen with everyone around me and on the team. he was hard as a coach but i never had any red flag on his behavior during my time with the team.

i have dicuss the pass with him at a few occassion, he never ran away from talking about it. what i saw is someone that was trying to do good from a very bad pass. That is all i can judge, i can only take into account what i see and what i know.

my time with brett was very positive and i have learn a lot even if it didnt happen to be the most positive impact on my racing performance at the time.

.

Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [jonnyo] [ In reply to ]
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As I said earlier in the thread, your blog was one I used to follow which I stopped following after you went to work with Team TBB.

I feel the same way about Brandon Marsh after reading his comments here, he essentially said that he went to train under Brett and Team TBB because it was "easy" for him, it checked all the boxes of coaching, sponsorship, etc. So he was willing to work with someone convicted of sexual assault against a minor because it happened to be convenient for him. That's not something I can respect.



Portside Athletics Blog
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [jonnyo] [ In reply to ]
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So the multiple quotes in the above post about him still working with minor's are lies?

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Re: Brett Sutton Article [TravisT] [ In reply to ]
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I dont know, if you read my replie, i said that i m sharing what i saw and what i witness from the 2009 edition team. We had all those teams....some of the same athlete and philipino. and none of them were part of our training group.

Brett was working with a team of professional athlete and trying to get them to make a living out of this sport. While Team TBB and developpement program was big, very few were actually working with brett. I douth it as chance since but i might be wrong.

I have done so much research about brett and interview him, the manage and about 15+ of his ex athletes befoe joining in 2009. it was a major concern of mine. in the end, i had very positive comments from everyoone about him so i decided that i would go there as a adult and see for myself. That s all i can judge on.

I do beleive someone should be given a chance in life. A chance to go own with his life, pay the price of his crime and try to do good. I dont think he deserve a second chance to work with kids as a coach. but what i saw at tbb was a coach working with adult only. so i was in peice with that and the way he behavied with everyone around the team.

not here to defend him... i m here to share my experience.

Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [Mad Jee] [ In reply to ]
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yeah, i understand your reaction. IT wasnt a easy call for me at the time. And it was a decision that i have taken very seriously and reseached a long time. At the end, i was in peice with it as i had done my homework and saw what i saw.

I dont know if things as changed now? if brett was working with kids now, i would not join the team. but whne i was part of it.... it was adult only and my impression is that it is still the case. Brett is the leader of team tbb but he dosnt coach everyone under the team unberealla.....

.

Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [toreishi] [ In reply to ]
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toreishi wrote:
Inherent to the concept of consent is understanding the impact and implications of the act to which you are consenting.
Legal or not (always a handy excuse), NO 14 yo girl can reasonably consent to such an act with a person whom she (assuming) admires, respects , wishes to please and , to some degree, fears.
As a female, I truly believe that there is never, ever any excuse, reasoning or justification for such an act as was perpetrated upon this child.

And to the poster who attempted to minimize the impact by saying that the victim (not a word I often use) is now married and successful : Shame on you.

So what Sutton did was criminal. That seems fairly black and white. What is also black and white to me is that a genuinely remorseful person should be able to rehabilitate himself over time and given a second chance. That idea seems to be under attack in this thread and it disturbs me to no end. Shit, the average alchoholic can do hard-core damage to lot's of people, and when he sobers up he's cool, get's to drive, continue his career, as long as he stays off the bottle.

It does makes sense that Sutton should never get to coach a minor again (i.e give up the bottle), however pure is heart and actions might be now. But if I were a pro that's one person I'd try to get for a coach, and I'd be proud of the association. He pulled himself out of a low, low place.


-------
Joe

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Re: Brett Sutton Article [jonnyo] [ In reply to ]
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You can reason/justify it in any way but for him to be even in contact with minors within the sport, to me is wrong. So you can say he doesn't "coach" them 3 posts after a picture of him with juniors, is odd.

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Re: Brett Sutton Article [Joe C.] [ In reply to ]
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Joe C. wrote:
toreishi wrote:
Inherent to the concept of consent is understanding the impact and implications of the act to which you are consenting.
Legal or not (always a handy excuse), NO 14 yo girl can reasonably consent to such an act with a person whom she (assuming) admires, respects , wishes to please and , to some degree, fears.
As a female, I truly believe that there is never, ever any excuse, reasoning or justification for such an act as was perpetrated upon this child.

And to the poster who attempted to minimize the impact by saying that the victim (not a word I often use) is now married and successful : Shame on you.


So what Sutton did was criminal. That seems fairly black and white. What is also black and white to me is that a genuinely remorseful person should be able to rehabilitate himself over time and given a second chance. That idea seems to be under attack in this thread and it disturbs me to no end. Shit, the average alchoholic can do hard-core damage to lot's of people, and when he sobers up he's cool, get's to drive, continue his career, as long as he stays off the bottle.

It does makes sense that Sutton should never get to coach a minor again (i.e give up the bottle), however pure is heart and actions might be now. But if I were a pro that's one person I'd try to get for a coach, and I'd be proud of the association. He pulled himself out of a low, low place.

The fact that he is still associating with minors let alone coaching them completely invalidates everything you just wrote.

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Re: Brett Sutton Article [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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So what will you do about it? will you just cry about it and type on your keyboard or fly out there and tell him you think he should not be around minor?????

because i took the second option....... when there and told him face to face, and i m happy of what i saw in 2009. he was doing the right thing.


.

Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [jonnyo] [ In reply to ]
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I will just say that it's an unfortunate situation, when we have stuff like this. And then for you to seemingly excuse/justify it just as unfortunate. We should all hope, an situation like that doesn't ever occur. In his situation, I'm surprised he is an an setting that puts him in contact with minors (ie, an photo like that was just posted.

Eta: I don't have the financial means to do anything more than discuss this on here. But when talk about the degree of his coaching minors ( or lack of "coaching" minors) and then pops up a picture of him with a minor in a coaching related picture, well seems odd. That is the part that should be questioned and hopefully not allowed.

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
Last edited by: BDoughtie: Jan 12, 13 10:26
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [jonnyo] [ In reply to ]
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I'll continue to do what I have done up until now, that is, make a point to not follow athletes associated with him, such as yourself, and make every effort to purchase products made by companies that sponsor those athletes.



Portside Athletics Blog
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [AlwaysCurious] [ In reply to ]
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Your discovery should not be buried in this thread, but rather a new thread should be started.
Everyone will be alerted, and maybe facts will emerge.
A convicted child molester is again coaching minors?!
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [Mad Jee] [ In reply to ]
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I don't have any issue with you taking the moral high ground, but when you start to take the intellectual high ground and act like I'm an idiot, then I have problems. You are correct that one federation - Australia - has banned him from coaching; the fact that you only THINK that is the case, instead of being certain, makes me wonder why you are so adamant in your stance. You could at least be bothered to read up on the facts. But the fact that he is banned from coaching by Australia hasn't stopped him from coaching Australian athletes to success at all levels of the sport since the ban. So...

The real analogy is whether or not a LAPD officer who is fired for excessive force can be banned from working for Blackwater as a private security guard in Singapore.

The real analogy is whether or not a school shooting in the US can affect gun control laws in Switzerland.

Now, I don't think that's a particularly interesting discussion to have, because the answers are obvious.

Yes, I am very clear about who and who is not my coach, but I'm actually - in that regard - much more the exception than the rule among pro triathletes. Macca - he "consults" with Darren Smith, but Darren isn't his coach. Crowie - he "consults" with Mat Steinmetz, but Mat isn't his coach. The list of athletes who have "advisors" and "consultants" - but who would say they are self-coached - is VERY long. My "shades of grey" aren't hypotheticals. They are a reflection of the very real state of triathlon.

And as to your "it should be simple to get a group to define..." you clearly don't work in a bureaucracy. Our sport can't even come up with a reasonably cohesive or consistent definition of what a pro athlete is, and you think it'd be simple to get a committee to define what a coach is? You're delusional.

Furthermore, even if that was a realistic possibility, banning a coach is not at all like banning an athlete, per your Lance example. Lance can't grab a timing chip and go from start to finish. Cut-and-dry. But you keep evading the basic question I have of how do you define coaching. How would you define "working in a professional capacity?" You still haven't done that. You've just passed it off as something that someone else should be able to define. If it's so easy, why can't you define it?

And as for your means of enforcement, I definitely have a problem there. You punish the athletes as a result of working with him? Really? Especially when you've refused to define in practical terms what, specifically, they'd be punished for. Email? On-site coaching? Phone? What?

As to your last comment, about agreeing to disagree, I can respect that there is certainly more good stuff in the world than we can consume, so if you want to weed some out because you don't agree with Sutton's past, that's your prerogative, and I respect that. I'm sorry that our disagreement changes your feelings about what I have to say, but I can respect that as well.

Lastly, because it was certainly news to me, I will say that I don't condone Brett's working with juniors. I hope Alex Bok - owner of TBB - might chime in to let us know the details. As Jonnyo said, do we know that he's actually working directly with them? He's the head coach of Team TBB, but that doesn't mean that he's actually directly involved in the day-to-day. Is he's simply writing a training plan that other coaches execute? Is he under constant supervision when he's with minors? None of those things would make me okay with the decision, but they at least might make me understand how someone else was. But the short answer is definitely that I do not think Brett should be working with minors/juniors. I think he lost that right.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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I have always thought it odd that Switzerland, a country with very strict immigration and residency laws, would allow someone with his record to live and work in the country. I doubt the US or Canada would give him a work isa. Anybody know anything about that?
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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I don't have any issue with you taking the moral high ground, but when you start to take the intellectual high ground and act like I'm an idiot, then I have problems.


I never said, nor did I mean to imply, that you were an idiot. So I will apologize for whatever gave you that impression, I have enough respect for you to not need to insult you just because we disagree.

You are correct that one federation - Australia - has banned him from coaching; the fact that you only THINK that is the case, instead of being certain, makes me wonder why you are so adamant in your stance. You could at least be bothered to read up on the facts.

I said I "thought" that because I wasn't sure. I prefer not to state things assuredly that I am not sure of. As to why I didn't look it up, it's because that aspect of this conversation isn't important to me. I can be adamant in my stance whether or not he was actually banned by a national federation, I don't need an official sanction to make up MY mind. I was just using as a counter-point to your argument that it would be tough to do, because I was relatively sure it had been done.

The real analogy is whether or not a school shooting in the US can affect gun control laws in Switzerland.

No, again that is not an appropriate analogy. There is no world governing body that controls guns laws that could take that step. However, there is the International Triathlon Union, and the World Triathlon Corporation, two international bodies that could take a single step to ban him from coaching athletes that compete in those federations.

And as to your "it should be simple to get a group to define..." you clearly don't work in a bureaucracy.

Now who is taking the intellectual high ground and treating the other like they are an idiot? I work for the federal government, so if you think I am unaware of the workings of a bureaucracy you're wrong.

Our sport can't even come up with a reasonably cohesive or consistent definition of what a pro athlete is, and you think it'd be simple to get a committee to define what a coach is? You're delusional.

That says more about the professionalism, or lack thereof, in triathlon, than it does about me or my delusions.

And as for your means of enforcement, I definitely have a problem there. You punish the athletes as a result of working with him? Really?

Yes, really. You want to eliminate drugs? Eliminate the demand. If there is a demand, there will always be a supply. Same is true here, you want to eliminate the supply of those convicted of sexually molesting a minor as triathlon coaches? Then make demanding the services of that person something no athlete will consider.


I'll say what I said elsewhere in this thread. I think Sutton is getting exactly what he wants from you, a well respected person in the sport who has an especially loud voice because of his association with the largest triathlon site on the internet coming to his defense. I am just not sure if you're getting what you want.



Portside Athletics Blog
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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I just reread my previous post and if it was this line "I don't know how I can make this clearer to you, I wish I saw it as being more complex so I could attempt to describe it differently. The fact that it seems so simple to me leaves me lacking another way to describe it to you." that left you feeling insulted, I apologize.

I could see how it could it could come across that way. I just meant to express frustration that we couldn't make each other understand the other's point of view. I was implying that this probably seemed straightforward and simple to you, and that it seemed that same to me, but that we couldn't make the other understand. Basically that we were communicating on different wave lengths, not that you were some sort of simpleton.



Portside Athletics Blog
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [Mad Jee] [ In reply to ]
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Technically, a ban by the ITU should be honored by WTC, so you shouldn't need both. But the ITU already enacted such a ban - for three years. So in that sense, the governing body handed down that sentence, and he served his time. However, it's not clear that he was actually prevented from coaching in any meaningful way. He was persona non grata at races - and was actually escorted out of some races - during that period, but the ITU chose not to use their means of enforcement as a punishment of the athletes. Now, you can choose to disagree with that (and it seems clear that you do), but the ITU both chose to sanction him for a set time period - not for life - and also to direct the punishment at him, not at the athletes.

I also would say that there is indeed a world governing body that could enact such legislation - the UN. Now, I happen to think that the UN is pretty much a joke, and that they could never actually enact anything with any real teeth, so perhaps it's meaningless. Alternatively, you could suggest that NATO countries abide by a set of gun import/export laws, since the trafficking and ownership of arms has consequences if NATO decides to intervene in a country. Unfortunately, it seems most often we seem to be sending arms into countries as opposed to keeping them out... But I disagree that it couldn't be done. If Americans were as interested in gun control as the Australians were after the tragic school shooting there in '96, I am certain that the US government would find a way to influence the manufacture and import/export of weapons globally.

You are correct that my statement says more about the state of professionalism in triathlon than it does about you. However, I would say that doesn't mean you aren't delusional. I just means that triathlon is ridiculously unprofessional whereas I'd say you are only somewhat delusional.

As far as your employer, according to LinkedIn, you work for the bureau of labor statistics as an economist. I get where more of your arguments are coming from - punish the demand and the supply disappears, for instance - but I am truly shocked that, as an economist in today's society, you genuinely believe that a bureaucracy can be ever as functional as you want the ITU to be in this case.

On to a more interesting question, how would you propose eliminate the demand for drugs? I certainly agree that it's been futile to focus on the supply side, but I'm curious what you answer to working on the demand side might be...

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [Mad Jee] [ In reply to ]
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Mad Jee wrote:
I just reread my previous post and if it was this line "I don't know how I can make this clearer to you, I wish I saw it as being more complex so I could attempt to describe it differently. The fact that it seems so simple to me leaves me lacking another way to describe it to you." that left you feeling insulted, I apologize.

I could see how it could it could come across that way. I just meant to express frustration that we couldn't make each other understand the other's point of view. I was implying that this probably seemed straightforward and simple to you, and that it seemed that same to me, but that we couldn't make the other understand. Basically that we were communicating on different wave lengths, not that you were some sort of simpleton.

Thanks. That was indeed what I was interpreting as you implying that I was a simpleton. Appreciate the clarification.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [Mad Jee] [ In reply to ]
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I have read some of Sutton's interviews and find him intriguing enough to follow on twitter. However, in light of his past, when I read the below tweet from him which was posted 2 hrs ago, it makes me feel extremely uncomfortable.

"when away from my girls, down and sinking deeper,always good2 c see keen wide eyed innocence, the first session4 cuzumel elite youth program"
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