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Re: Brett Sutton Article [asianzone] [ In reply to ]
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Considering TBB is a big ponzi scheme (ask any of their suppliers) it's interesting to see how well the athletes are paid...
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [AlwaysCurious] [ In reply to ]
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AlwaysCurious wrote:
You are of course free to be coached by Sutton for any reason you choose. And I won't question your morals for doing so, even if your decision was born mostly out of convenience (wanting the package deal of sponsorship and coaching with little front-end expense). He may be remorseful for his crime, and he may have paid a high price. He also may have some great ideas about triathlon that many could learn from.

That, however, does not change my opinion that the price he should pay for his crime is a lifetime ban from coaching. But because I have no influence over that, my choice is to simply consider him a persona non grata. I likewise feel that way about any athlete who chooses to be coached by him, and any companies that sponsor his team.

My choice may or may not be logical or fair, but that's what it is until someone changes my mind otherwise.

I would understand this point if you added the word "minors" and have no qualms with it but for coaching adults I simply don't see why that should be a problem. As reasoned adults we know his past and can choose to either work with him or not and there is no risk associated with it. There are lots of things about lots of people I don't like, some of them I choose as friends\acquaitances others I don't and the same principle applies here
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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"For the record, I am not now and never have been a part of Team TBB. Brett is not now and never has been my coach. I do not "work with" Brett in any capacity...

And then he asked me to share the post about the kids. He told me that he doesn't really care about people reading his coaching stuff, but that he cared a lot about the way we are affecting our kids through sport, and that he'd appreciate my sharing that post."

You may not "work with" him, but he's working with you. Using your credibility to increase his own. Here's the cynical view, he's a manipulator and he knows you are a nice guy with a huge audience. Did you ever think he might be using you for his own gain even if you aren't using him for yours?

To the poster who said Brett is not Pete Rose, I think you misunderstand the analogy. What Pete did - fundamentally - was to violate trust. That's the same thing that Brett did.

That was me, and no Jordan, you're absolutely wrong. I have tremendous respect for you, but I so wish you'd stop saying stuff like this. All violations of trust aren't the same, violating the trust of a sport versus sexually abusing a minor don't even fall on the same spectrum of "trust violations".

Now, this is certainly not to equate statutory rape with betting on baseball.

That's what Dan, and now you are doing.

It's to analogize that their crimes directly impacted their role as stewards.

You might think you're doing that, but you're actually doing the above.

If you focus only on the severity of the crimes, you miss that.

What else to focus on?



Portside Athletics Blog
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [ironpsych] [ In reply to ]
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ironpsych wrote:


and it was not "CONSENSUAL".

Any ladies want to chime in?

I am a woman, and a physician. And a teacher seduced me in high school. The director of a play I had a lead role in. As a 15 year old girl I was flattered and confused. It has DEFINITELY colored my relationships over the years. But of course avagoyamug would say I am fine because I went on to marry and have children and a successful career.

My experience as a Family Medicine Physician and as a woman is this haunts you for LIFE. Not only did Sutto have sex with a minor, he was her COACH he was in a position of trust! As a society we frown on that even in adults.

14 year old girls LOOK older - appear seductive. Part of what is going on is they are testing out their new sexuality. The job of the adults entrusted in the care of these young people is to keep firm boundaries.

Sutto violated that period.

I will not forgive his actions nor forget regardless of what contributions he gives as a coach to the sport of triathlon. He can state how it haunts him - it should.

Unlike peeing in the pool this is a moral lapse and Sutto is damaged morally. Those who choose to brush that aside can justify it any way they want. The facts remain.
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [ironpsych] [ In reply to ]
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I am a mother.
It greatly disturbs me that Coach Sutton, convicted child molester, claims the minor athlete trusted to his care "consented".
Her parents trusted him sufficiently to make him a "godfather" of her sibling.

I find I cannot cheer for athletes on TBB.
I don't want Sutton to get any more spotlight as a coach.
Had I known about his past and Cervelo's sponsorship at the time, I would never have purchased my P3.

Since you asked.
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [caf0] [ In reply to ]
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Had I known about his past and Cervelo's sponsorship at the time, I would never have purchased my P3.

I stopped following Jonathan Caron's blog after he joined Team TBB a few years ago and always kind of cringe when I see those black/white/pink uniforms crossing the finish line.

This forum skewered Matty Reed for the fact that he planned to get some cycling training advice from Tyler Hamilton, to the point that Reed then abandoned that plan. The sport's tolerance for this guy is shocking.



Portside Athletics Blog
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [bcagle25] [ In reply to ]
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There has been plenty of comment on other elements of Sutton/Article, but from a sheer high performance standpoint, it is so interesting to me to see the difference in his style versus that of some other "coaches of champions," which just goes to show that like most debates on ST, the answer is often grey, and comes down to a matter of what works for a certain type of athlete. Some athletes need to give total control (e.g., by that I mean literally they cannot know their own power) to a coach, and others benefit from a more mutual/communicative understanding of their physiology and training...again, I think this has a lot more to do with the athlete than the coach.

In terms of giving back to the community, personally, I don't see Sutton writing a few posts here and there that can be quite hard to follow (I get English may not be his first language and can appreciate that, but I'm sure someone on his team could help him edit) and otherwise being very secretive/short is too heroic, especially when there are other "coaches of champions" out there like Matt Dixon that write regularly, provide tons of great educational material through websites, regular interviews, etc., etc.

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Re: Brett Sutton Article [caf0] [ In reply to ]
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caf0 wrote:
I am a mother.
It greatly disturbs me that Coach Sutton, convicted child molester, claims the minor athlete trusted to his care "consented".
Her parents trusted him sufficiently to make him a "godfather" of her sibling.

I find I cannot cheer for athletes on TBB.
I don't want Sutton to get any more spotlight as a coach.
Had I known about his past and Cervelo's sponsorship at the time, I would never have purchased my P3.

Since you asked.

well said
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [caf0] [ In reply to ]
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General reply to this thread. I think many good points have been discussed. As a coach in youth sport for 12 years, and currently coaching teens in both clubs and high schools, I don't want to see anyone with a past like Sutton remotely close to the coaching ranks. Coaches are not just people who impart technical skills in a sport. We have to be role models for the kids, give them skills for life, guide them towards what is right and what is not right, teach them about goal setting, execution, winning, losing and fair play. Parents entrust coaches to impart all of this to their kids. It takes a village to raise a child, and there are some things parents cannot do, so they hand their kids off to sports coaches, piano teachers, academic teachers and so on, to make their kids better humans and prepare them for adult life. Sutton failed all of us with his actions.

To Ironpsych, it might be unfair to just pick on Brandon here as he is one of many athletes and is kind enough to actually come here to ST and post on many topics. Many pro athletes much more prominent than him have entrusted their development as adult professionals to Sutton. We can name Caroline Steffen and Chrissie Wellington among that top tier. Going back a decade Siri Lindley and Loretta Harrop (if I recall correctly). Do all criminals in society deserve a second chance to reform themselves? I think the answer is yes.

Does Sutton deserve to be still coaching after violating that most fundamental foundation in his role as a coach. I lean towards no and so does the Australian government. But enough people have leaned towards yes, and there have been no further incidents that anyone is publicly aware of, that maybe (just maybe) he is a reformed man, with the wisdom that comes with age. I don't know the answer to that, but before we throw all Team TBB athletes under the bus, let's think it through. I'm glad to throw Sutton under the bus 1000 times for what he did many years ago as there is no excuse for what he did with his athlete. His current athletes, they know more about him than you or I.

They are adults and need to make their own decisions and I am sure they all weigh the upside of what they can achieve with him with the moral dilemma of association with his past. Bjorn said things very well above. I can see how people might train under him, but for me personally, it just does not sit well. There are many areas in triathlon that Sutton could earn a living in outside of coaching, and I'd have preferred to see that path as everyone should be able to earn a living, once they are reformed past their conviction and served their penalties and re integrated into society.
Last edited by: devashish_paul: Jan 11, 13 5:50
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [TravisT] [ In reply to ]
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TravisT wrote:
These same people who will support Sutton and talk about how he is reformed and his actions don't matter because time has passed or the girl is now happily married (that one totally blew my mind) are the same ones who want to see LA destroyed for doping and being an asshole to people even if he were to come out and confess. This is not a defense of LA it's simply unbelievable where some people place their priorities.

Yep.
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [zoom] [ In reply to ]
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Would you hire Victor Conte of Balco to provide you legit and legal nutritional product that would help your performance, knowing the implications?

Would you hire Dr. Michele Ferrari if he were to provide you legit and legal medical services, knowing the implications?



Well said. I just don't get why he gets any semblance of a "pass".

I can't help but view anything he touches without a bit of skepticism.
Last edited by: slimfast: Jan 11, 13 6:05
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [Goosedog] [ In reply to ]
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Goosedog wrote:
TravisT wrote:
These same people who will support Sutton and talk about how he is reformed and his actions don't matter because time has passed or the girl is now happily married (that one totally blew my mind) are the same ones who want to see LA destroyed for doping and being an asshole to people even if he were to come out and confess. This is not a defense of LA it's simply unbelievable where some people place their priorities.

Yep.

No.

Some of us are actually capable of having the position that Sutton committed a serious crime and should suffer those consequences, and that LA doped, lied and coerced others, and that he, too, should suffer those consequences.

I do my best to avoid Sutton and LA discussions now because there is little to gain from them. Nobody is going to change their positions....it is what it is.

It is very difficult for to find respect for those who are willing to cast aside Sutton's past. He may very well be truly repentant and I hope that he is.....but some crimes are of such a heinous nature that the perpetrator of those crimes deserves little compassion.

Sutton is free to try and make a living from coaching....just as I am free to ignore his teachings / advice. If he told me he could make me a Kona contender within a year, I still wouldn't heed his teachings.

YMMV.

Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [Power13] [ In reply to ]
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Power13 wrote:
Goosedog wrote:
TravisT wrote:

These same people who will support Sutton and talk about how he is reformed and his actions don't matter because time has passed or the girl is now happily married (that one totally blew my mind) are the same ones who want to see LA destroyed for doping and being an asshole to people even if he were to come out and confess. This is not a defense of LA it's simply unbelievable where some people place their priorities.


Yep.


No.

Where is the disagreement, in light of what you wrote after this?
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Rappstar wrote:
SlayerHatebreed wrote:
"What could have been with Chrissie"


What the heck are you talking about... she accomplished everything and in many eyes, including my own, was the best ever. She was never beaten. What else more where you expecting? How many titles is enough?

Of course we lost something special when she retired.



For a guy who hammers other people about making assumptions, you are making a whole bunch yourself right there about my post. Why do you assume that I'm talking about titles? By not racing, her influence on the sport is diminished. I'm sure there are some who will disagree with that, but when she retired, she sacrificed a lot of her platform. I think Chrissie could have changed the sport in much, much more meaningful ways than just raising the bar on competition. She still might. But I think it will be harder to do that if she is not racing. Now, I don't think she needed to do that, by any means. She gave the sport and all of us a lot. But I think there was really no limit to what she could have done within the sport as a leader. And THAT is what I mean when I say "what could have been." And that's also what I think Brett is referring to.


I appreciate as someone I've always found to be a person who considers the potential consequences of their actions, that you've still chosen to make public at least an email friendship with Sutton. He's a talented coach to be sure, and if we are to believe his transgression was a 1 time thing, then it's something to consider. A person can be reformed in my mind. With all the talk of doping and former dopers around here, there are some who I honestly believe even if told there was no chance of ever being caught, that some of them would never cross that line again. It doesn't vindicate him from the crime, but it's possible to see how a person can make a single mistake in their life and not have it become more than that. is the guy truly a sexual predator or merely someone who let his life get out of control? Hard to say. No way of knowing whats in a guys mind, but to me it's the action that makes the difference. I don't know that much about his crime, other than what has been reported here, but it's challenging to be sympathetic, but that as far as we know he has never re-offended, I think that's a positive sign.

As for Chrissie, sure, she'd probably have a bigger platform (as more people come to the sport every day), but the racing isn't in her heart now, I applaud she has stepped away. She certainly has stayed active, and her twitter following doesn't seem to be suffering for it. I don't know how effective her fundraising is, because she isn't making a big production of it. She just seems to be going out and doing it. the causes she's working for; health, women in sport, etc. I actually think she's doing things the right way, making a difference not being self congratulatory; being the same as a person as she was as a racer.
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Brett most certainly does profit from you. He profits from you coming on Slowtwitch and using your credibility to support him.

And if I interpret your post correctly, you changed from thinking he was a scumbag to a reformed man simply because he tweeted nice about you and sends you some emails?

The whole point about being a "nation of laws, not men," is that we don't need to evaluate the character of someone to determine if they've committed a crime. In theory, good guys who are successful in their field shouldn't get less harsh treatment than non-productive bums.

He raped a teen girl. By definition, that makes him a scumbag. A forever scumbag? In my eyes, yes (no matter how contrite he now is). Apparently not in yours. But I'm surprised that you'll use his contribution to the sport as one of the criteria for deciding if he's reformed. What on earth can you possibly know about his heart, intentions and thinking? That he knows how to sweet talk on email is about all.

And why is he so important to the sport that you're on here promoting him?
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [AlwaysCurious] [ In reply to ]
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FWIW, I think Lance is a sociopath, is borderline evil, and hope he never gets to compete or have anything to do with endurance sport again. Ive been shouting his evilness and phonyness from the roof tops for years.

But am a big fan of Sutton and think he knows more about triahtlon than any poster on this forum and his current influence on triathlon and in the world is only for the good.

So it's not the same people defending both, its just people can see different issues differently.
Last edited by: avagoyamug: Jan 11, 13 6:45
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [avagoyamug] [ In reply to ]
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Reading your drivel makes me sick. Although finding out you feel LA actions are worse then Sutton's merely confirms the level of your degeneration. Since you obviously know jack shit about the realities of Sutton's actions the reason he took a plea was not to protect the victim. The reason more of these cases don't go to trial is the additional trauma the victim's would have to go through appearing on the stand and so many of them are plead down leaving the molester with a paltry penalty compared to the crime that helps idiots like you to justify their inane support.

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Re: Brett Sutton Article [Goosedog] [ In reply to ]
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Goosedog wrote:
Power13 wrote:
Goosedog wrote:
TravisT wrote:

These same people who will support Sutton and talk about how he is reformed and his actions don't matter because time has passed or the girl is now happily married (that one totally blew my mind) are the same ones who want to see LA destroyed for doping and being an asshole to people even if he were to come out and confess. This is not a defense of LA it's simply unbelievable where some people place their priorities.


Yep.


No.


Where is the disagreement, in light of what you wrote after this?

Just clarifying that people can be consistent in criticizing both parties. The implication form the above post is that people who support one automatically damn the other. Such an assertion is silly.....there are people who support Sutton AND Lance, people who damn Sutton and support Lance and people who support neither.

Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [Power13] [ In reply to ]
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Power13 wrote:
Just clarifying that people can be consistent in criticizing both parties. The implication form the above post is that people who support one automatically damn the other.

I think the quote was expressing confusion that some would villify LA, but seem to go out of their way to support/forgive Sutton.
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Rappstar wrote:
Yknot wrote:
-BrandonMarshTX wrote:
Suffice to say I'm willing to stack my morals up against anyone's, but go ahead and question them like some of you have Rapp's....


Forgive me for being short, it is flu season and our resources are stretched thin trying to figure out who has the sniffles and who has the flu. Maybe it isn't as tiring as a Brett Sutton workout, but when you get to tell a kid he can go home and play Xbox with his brother it makes the long days worth it. Reminds me why I chose to work in a children's hospital- kids are precious and innocent and it is all of our responsibilities to keep them safe.

That having been said, we can now stack morals. I spend my days, and lately nights, trying to keep kids healthy and safe. You work for and publicly defend a man who as a 27 year old male used his position of authority to sexually abuse a 14 year old girl. A crime he pleaded guilty to and never spent a day in prison for. He is, however, contrite about the whole ordeal. Are we done stacking?

Look, here is the truth. I don't think you or Jordan or Chrissie or any other member of team tbb are bad people for working with Brett. I think you all know that interactions with him can aid your careers and I think you are willing to buy the line he has managed to sell you about him molesting a 14 year old girl. None of you would have given him a chance if he wasn't as good a coach as he is. And none of you would work with him if he didn't convince you that he is remorseful and reformed. Thing is, I am fairly certain Sutton knows all this and knows his success depends on convincing folks to look past his actions.
You aren't bad people; you are people buying a load of crap from a piece of shit. I think the professional success that piece of shit can offer is what brought you in the door to the showroom and I think the convincing sales pitch is what sold you. You aren't bad people, you are just human.


For the record, I am not now and never have been a part of Team TBB. Brett is not now and never has been my coach. I do not "work with" Brett in any capacity. I do not seek his advice, input, or anything else in any capacity that would further my career. What knowledge I have gleaned from him, I have gleaned from what he writes on twitter, interviews he does, etc. There is no weighing of "well, on the one hand, Brett abused a minor, but on the other hand, he could help me win a lot of races." I have none of that. I do not ask Brett for advice. I have a coach - Michael Krueger. I trust him, and I do not need to second guess what he's doing with Brett. Just so we are clear.

I haven't been brought into any showroom. I haven't bought a load of crap. But you are right that I am human. And in being human I thought about the mistakes that I've made in my life. And some of them have been pretty massive. I've thought about the fact that I don't know this man at all outside of two things - 1) he committed a heinous crime that he owned up to and 2) he seems to care a great deal about making right for a very, very serious wrong that he committed. So I decided that it was not my place to judge him. And I decided to give him the benefit of the doubt.

After Ironman Texas, Brett wrote a short but complimentary tweet about me. So I asked Brandon for Brett's email. I wrote to Brett and said, paraphrasing slightly for brevity, "I saw what you wrote on twitter. Thank you. But you should know that I've said some pretty harsh and condemning things about you in very public forums. I feel badly about having done that, because I realized I don't actually know you or really know what happened other than - at best - some 3rd hand accounts. I assumed you were a scumbag because you did something awful. But people change. And based off what I know about you from people whose opinion I value - like Brandon - you don't actually seem like a scumbag. Anyway..."

I didn't really write it expecting much of a reply. I just wrote it because I did not feel good about having sat in judgement - like plenty of folks on this thread have done and are doing - of someone I don't really know. That's not the person I want to be. That's it. That's why I wrote to Brett. And when he wrote back, he wrote something very similar to that letter to Dan. He thanked me, but said he lives with what he's done every day. And nothing can change that. But he's doing his best to try and make up for it. I take him at his word. If you don't that's fine. But ours is not a relationship of personal gain. I don't profit from Brett. And he doesn't profit from me.

I wrote to him most recently - I write about once a month or so - because I enjoyed his blog about kids' sports. And because I didn't know he was a father - he has two sets of kids from two marriages - 25, 22, 21 from #1 and 9 & 7 from #2. We talked a bit about running shoes. And then he asked me to share the post about the kids. He told me that he doesn't really care about people reading his coaching stuff, but that he cared a lot about the way we are affecting our kids through sport, and that he'd appreciate my sharing that post. Now, maybe that's a load of crap. And maybe I bought it. I'll accept that. I just don't want to be that cynical. I don't think the world is that dark. And I hope I never do...

To the poster who said Brett is not Pete Rose, I think you misunderstand the analogy. What Pete did - fundamentally - was to violate trust. That's the same thing that Brett did. Pete violated his stewardship of the game. Brett also violated his stewardship. Now, this is certainly not to equate statutory rape with betting on baseball. It's to analogize that their crimes directly impacted their role as stewards. E.g., if Brett had committed the same crime with a girl who Brett was not coaching, Dan would not have drawn that analogy. It is the violation of trust by a steward that led Dan to make that analogy. If you focus only on the severity of the crimes, you miss that. And I think it's important. I respect that other people may not.

What troubles me about this thread, more than anything, is that everyone assumes that people are acting solely out of self-interest. Have we really all become Homo economicus or some sort of Ayn Rand-ian traders who care only "what's in it for me?" I pray - and I'm not any sort of religious - that we haven't...


Jordan your support/friendship of Sutton is a bit of a catch-22. On one hand your accessibility on here and explanations of your thought process is something we all appreciate. Conversely you have lost a LOT of credibility with me and many others with this. For someone as intelligent as you it's surprising that all it took to turn you around on him was a supportive tweet and an email. You think he's not going to come off as credible to you? It's something straight out of the LA PR playbook. It's even more disturbing that you would actively share and promote anything he put out related to kids, sports and coaching. That just dropped you even lower. Although what he says may make sense there are plenty of other credible sources with the same message who didn't do what he did.

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Last edited by: TravisT: Jan 11, 13 8:14
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [TravisT] [ In reply to ]
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I cringed and did a double take when I read what Rapp wrote concerning what you stated (in bold).

Just imagined the feedback from the football if an NFL player came out and said he and Sandusky had been corresponding via emails. Through those emails, said NFL player is now convinced that Sandusky has recognized the errors of his ways by trying to make amends by trying to promote pee-wee league football. Most reasonable people would cringe, just like most people would cringe at the Rapp's statments that you highlighted.

Quote:

Jordan your support/friendship of Sutton is a bit of a catch-22. On one hand your accessibility on here and explanations of your thought process is something we all appreciate. Conversely you have lost a LOT of credibility with me and many others with this. For someone as intelligent as you it's surprising that all it took to turn you around on him was a supportive tweet and an email. You think he's not going to come off as credible to you? It's something straight out of the LA PR playbook. It's even more disturbing that you would actively share and promote anything he put out related to kids, sports and coaching. That just dropped you even lower. Although what he says may make sense there are plenty of other credible sources with the same message who didn't do what he did.


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Last edited by: zoom: Jan 11, 13 8:33
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [Maui5150] [ In reply to ]
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Maui5150 wrote:

Gotta disagree here. You may argue consensuality of a 16/17 year old and I might buy that based upon maturity, life experience, but I would still err on it being immoral, less immoral if the ages are close, like a 18 year old with a 16 year old. Still wrong. Something I have and lived by being off limits.

Just for definition sake: boyfriend and girlfriend of 15 and 13 2 years 4 months about. When he turns 18 and she's got 4 months until 16, is that immoral? When she's 16 or 17 is that still wrong? is it only wrong if they have sex? What if the girl turns 18 first and the boy is just shy of 16. Please tell me the moral guidelines there.
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [AlwaysCurious] [ In reply to ]
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AlwaysCurious wrote:
<snip>What on earth can you possibly know about his heart, intentions and thinking?</snip>

Nothing. And that's why I chose to change my opinion in advance of anything else. I decided to stop thinking the worst and to take a more optimistic view. I changed my opinion before I ever wrote to Brett. Maybe I'm a sucker. I can live with that.

I should be dead. But I'm not because some random stranger decided to do something remarkable. Of course, some other random stranger decided to do something terrible. But I'd rather assume the best in people, because I just find that to be the worldview I want to pass on to my son.

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<snip>But I'm surprised that you'll use his contribution to the sport as one of the criteria for deciding if he's reformed.<snip>

What else should I use?

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<snip>And why is he so important to the sport that you're on here promoting him?</snip>

Because he has a lot of wisdom to share. And because I think if there's one thing that the sporting world, triathlon in particular but sports in general, is short on, it's real wisdom.

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<snip>He raped a teen girl. By definition, that makes him a scumbag. A forever scumbag? In my eyes, yes (no matter how contrite he now is). Apparently not in yours.<snip>

For the record, I think that he's a forever scumbag too. And I think that he believes he's a forever scumbag too. I just don't think that's ALL he is.

It's human nature to assume that people are basically all X, whatever X is. It's in our basic psychology. We have a very hard time reconciling that good people do bad things and vice versa. You see this in particular with Lance. People believe he didn't dope because of his charity work. And on the flipside, people believe his charity work is a sham because of his massive crimes with regards to doping. I believe that his charity work is genuine and that he genuinely cares about cancer patients. The mission Livestrong makes sense when you think about why Lance almost died - it was not that his cancer was rare or untreatable; it was that he didn't get the right advice early enough, which is what - in part - Livestrong aims to do. People like to quote the 2007 article on Charity Watch that says it cost Livestrong "as much as 45 cents to raise $1." And they ignore the fact that as of 2011 - using 2010 returns - over the history of the charity, over $0.80 of every $1 has gone directly to programs/outreach/etc. I believe that Livestrong is legitimate for the exact same reason that I believe Lance was a fraud and a cheat as an athlete - it's the consensus based on evidence. The tax returns, the Livestrong employees (you don't think one Livestrong employee would roll on Lance if it was a fraud?), etc. Just like it's impossible to say that Lance did not commit atrocious acts of intimidation, fraud, malice, etc as an athlete with all of the evidence surrounding that, I think it's equally impossible to say that Livestrong does not do good work. Now, that's a very hard thing to reconcile in our brains. The easiest way to do it is to assume that the charity work is just a facade. But I don't believe that. I think it's genuine. I think he genuinely cares about the work that Livestrong does in a (mostly) altruistic way. And I also think he's a pathological liar, a fraud, a cheat, and worse. He forced athletes to put their lives at risk by doping; he ruined careers and reputations willfully and vindictively. I think he operates at more polar extremes than the typical person, but I think everyone has good and bad in them. I think it's rare that someone can be so skewed, but I don't believe it's impossible. I would certainly like to see Lance held accountable for his crimes to a much greater degree than he has been. He RUINED a lot of lives. But he also made a profound positive difference in a lot of lives. I want him to pay for his crimes. And to pay dearly. But I don't want to see him totally destroyed as a human being. I don't want to see done to him what he did to others. I do not want, "an eye for an eye." I understand that other people do, and I respect that. I'd just ask that people respect that other people's sense of justice may differ.

Is Brett manipulative, authoritarian, and otherwise precisely the kind of the person who would prey on a female minor over whom he had authority. Yes, he is. And he did precisely that. But I also think he's a father and a mentor who cares a lot about people. I expect that whatever lead him to make that terrible, terrible decision is still very much a part of his psyche. But I also don't think it's his whole person.

The world is most comfortable to our brains when it's black and white. But I don't actually think the world is very black and white. Or, more specifically, I don't think that people are very black and white. Actions? Sure. Brett committed - no shades of grey - an atrocity. But does that make him - as a person - an atrocity? I don't want to take that view of the world. If people think less of me because of that, I'm okay with that.

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Re: Brett Sutton Article [pick6] [ In reply to ]
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pick6 wrote:
Maui5150 wrote:


Gotta disagree here. You may argue consensuality of a 16/17 year old and I might buy that based upon maturity, life experience, but I would still err on it being immoral, less immoral if the ages are close, like a 18 year old with a 16 year old. Still wrong. Something I have and lived by being off limits.


Just for definition sake: boyfriend and girlfriend of 15 and 13 2 years 4 months about. When he turns 18 and she's got 4 months until 16, is that immoral? When she's 16 or 17 is that still wrong? is it only wrong if they have sex? What if the girl turns 18 first and the boy is just shy of 16. Please tell me the moral guidelines there.

In scenario what is the State, country or province. Immoral, probably not, illegal, possibly.

It also depends on the norms and culture of the state/country the people are in.

If you take the US, age of consent ranges from 16 to 18 generally. If you take Alaska for example, age of consent is 16, but there is an age gap allowance, so a 15 year old I think could have sex with a 16 year old still can be a crime, but lesser than statutory rape, but an 18 year old would be statutory rape. Alaska also would allow where I believe is the 16 year old used a fake ID to get into a dance club and that same 18 year old took her home, even though should be statutory, the fact that he had a reasonable expectation that she was 18 and screened, means he has a shot at getting off. Now if that was Alabama, no nice. Mistake of age is not a defense.

Massachusetts - if she is under 16, it is illegal regardless.

Now where this gets tricky for your boys and girls playing at home... and shame on you for not asking the real "Devils Advocate" question... what if you are in Massachusetts, and BOTH parties are under 16. In fact, I am not even going to specify gender since Massachusetts will free wheel so much... (Though technically I think sodomy is still illegal regardless of gender... ) Technically under Mass Law, I believe both parties could be charged with rape. Makes you wonder if you can have a "victimless crime" if both parties can be thought of criminal defiling each other.

Also not handled by your question of morality is the mental capacity of one of the participants. You in fact could have a 15 year old sleep with an 18 year old, and if the 18 year old had a mental defect, I may think of the the 15 year old being the immoral one and the 18 year old not responsible for their actions.
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Rappstar wrote:
AlwaysCurious wrote:
<snip>What on earth can you possibly know about his heart, intentions and thinking?</snip>


Nothing. And that's why I chose to change my opinion in advance of anything else. I decided to stop thinking the worst and to take a more optimistic view. I changed my opinion before I ever wrote to Brett. Maybe I'm a sucker. I can live with that.

I should be dead. But I'm not because some random stranger decided to do something remarkable. Of course, some other random stranger decided to do something terrible. But I'd rather assume the best in people, because I just find that to be the worldview I want to pass on to my son.

Quote:
<snip>But I'm surprised that you'll use his contribution to the sport as one of the criteria for deciding if he's reformed.<snip>


What else should I use?

Quote:
<snip>And why is he so important to the sport that you're on here promoting him?</snip>


Because he has a lot of wisdom to share. And because I think if there's one thing that the sporting world, triathlon in particular but sports in general, is short on, it's real wisdom.

Quote:
<snip>He raped a teen girl. By definition, that makes him a scumbag. A forever scumbag? In my eyes, yes (no matter how contrite he now is). Apparently not in yours.<snip>


For the record, I think that he's a forever scumbag too. And I think that he believes he's a forever scumbag too. I just don't think that's ALL he is.

It's human nature to assume that people are basically all X, whatever X is. It's in our basic psychology. We have a very hard time reconciling that good people do bad things and vice versa. You see this in particular with Lance. People believe he didn't dope because of his charity work. And on the flipside, people believe his charity work is a sham because of his massive crimes with regards to doping. I believe that his charity work is genuine and that he genuinely cares about cancer patients. The mission Livestrong makes sense when you think about why Lance almost died - it was not that his cancer was rare or untreatable; it was that he didn't get the right advice early enough, which is what - in part - Livestrong aims to do. People like to quote the 2007 article on Charity Watch that says it cost Livestrong "as much as 45 cents to raise $1." And they ignore the fact that as of 2011 - using 2010 returns - over the history of the charity, over $0.80 of every $1 has gone directly to programs/outreach/etc. I believe that Livestrong is legitimate for the exact same reason that I believe Lance was a fraud and a cheat as an athlete - it's the consensus based on evidence. The tax returns, the Livestrong employees (you don't think one Livestrong employee would roll on Lance if it was a fraud?), etc. Just like it's impossible to say that Lance did not commit atrocious acts of intimidation, fraud, malice, etc as an athlete with all of the evidence surrounding that, I think it's equally impossible to say that Livestrong does not do good work. Now, that's a very hard thing to reconcile in our brains. The easiest way to do it is to assume that the charity work is just a facade. But I don't believe that. I think it's genuine. I think he genuinely cares about the work that Livestrong does in a (mostly) altruistic way. And I also think he's a pathological liar, a fraud, a cheat, and worse. He forced athletes to put their lives at risk by doping; he ruined careers and reputations willfully and vindictively. I think he operates at more polar extremes than the typical person, but I think everyone has good and bad in them. I think it's rare that someone can be so skewed, but I don't believe it's impossible. I would certainly like to see Lance held accountable for his crimes to a much greater degree than he has been. He RUINED a lot of lives. But he also made a profound positive difference in a lot of lives. I want him to pay for his crimes. And to pay dearly. But I don't want to see him totally destroyed as a human being. I don't want to see done to him what he did to others. I do not want, "an eye for an eye." I understand that other people do, and I respect that. I'd just ask that people respect that other people's sense of justice may differ.

Is Brett manipulative, authoritarian, and otherwise precisely the kind of the person who would prey on a female minor over whom he had authority. Yes, he is. And he did precisely that. But I also think he's a father and a mentor who cares a lot about people. I expect that whatever lead him to make that terrible, terrible decision is still very much a part of his psyche. But I also don't think it's his whole person.

The world is most comfortable to our brains when it's black and white. But I don't actually think the world is very black and white. Or, more specifically, I don't think that people are very black and white. Actions? Sure. Brett committed - no shades of grey - an atrocity. But does that make him - as a person - an atrocity? I don't want to take that view of the world. If people think less of me because of that, I'm okay with that.


This is the problem with living in the microcosm of the ST triathlon world and only thinking in the small context of sport. You and the athletes he coaches are adults though and are free to balance his crime against what benefit he can provide you, or in your case "triathlon" as you claim. You apparently don't even feel he has lost the credibility to speak on issues related to coaching children let alone adults and support him as a source of knowledge in that sphere over others who don't share his background.

Actions affect credibility though and his have an effect on his ability to speak to issues related to kids. Your decision to support him affects your credibility on all the topics you speak on. I know I trust you a lot less now then before when you espouse a position or opinion given your ability to overlook and support Sutton. You obviously don't care as you stated above though.

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Last edited by: TravisT: Jan 11, 13 10:00
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