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Re: Brett Sutton Article [avagoyamug] [ In reply to ]
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avagoyamug wrote:
NAB777 wrote:
avagoyamug wrote:

To compare Sutton with Sandusky is a travesty. Sutton had one consensual relationship with a 14/15 year old girl that he coached. The police interviewed every single other athlete he coached and there was no other incidence. He did wrong no doubt. It was a different time and he is a different person now. On balance I think he has done more good than harm on earth.


Do you realize what you have written? An adult having a 'consensual relationship' with a 14 year old..? That's pretty sick.
Sutton & Lance - they'd make good pair. It's everyone else's fault.

His questionable behaviour didn't stop after the multiple incidents with the 14 year old girl.


Save the drama queen act sweetheart.

I said that is was wrong. What I am saying is that there are degrees of wrong and what he did it is not in the same post code as what Sandusky did or what every second catholic priest has done all over the world that are still protected by that evil corporation, even today.

If you feel that what he did and molesting 6-12 year old boys are the same because there are no degrees of wrong, just either right or wrong, then go ahead. I just don't see it that way.

He has paid for what he did again and again and will continue to do so for the rest of his life. Its part of the reason he is doing so much good at the moment as he is trying to make amends.

And by the way, the girl in question married on of Australia's top triathletes (now Tri coach) and has been for over ten years. She's fine.

She's had a Spot of trouble though... if you really know the facts.
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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just curious as to what you feel chrissie could do to better the sport? (being sincere here)...

other than raising the bar for women's competition im really not sure what she's done. i dont see increased prize purses for pros. i dont know a single person who didnt know anything about triathlon before who now all of a sudden knows who chrissie is. i dont know any current triathletes who go 'im going to race more because of chrissie, shes so inspirational'...what am i missing here?

dont get me wrong shes a great personality and i love watching her race but im not sure what tangible impact shes had.
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [butch] [ In reply to ]
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butch wrote:
just curious as to what you feel chrissie could do to better the sport? (being sincere here)...

other than raising the bar for women's competition im really not sure what she's done. i dont see increased prize purses for pros. i dont know a single person who didnt know anything about triathlon before who now all of a sudden knows who chrissie is. i dont know any current triathletes who go 'im going to race more because of chrissie, shes so inspirational'...what am i missing here?

dont get me wrong shes a great personality and i love watching her race but im not sure what tangible impact shes had.

Seriously, not one? Dude, you need to meet more women triathletes. Plus learn how to use apostrophes.
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [butch] [ In reply to ]
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If you were female you prolly would not see it that way.
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [duncan] [ In reply to ]
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Maybe but how many of those countries have a higher limit when the older party is an authority figure.

___________________________________________
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2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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You know, I draft up posts and delete them every time this subject comes up. I'll just give some comments as I was quoted in the article. I talked at length last summer with the author, and he picked out one sentence of our nearly hour long conversation. But, this post will be a summary of what the author of the InsideTri article and I talked on. There's an article from 2002 that summarizes the case against Brett pretty well as well as that against many other coaches. The accuser/victim, the husband of the victim, Brett, Brett's coaching methods at the time (same/similar as those presented in this latest article), and other similar stories of the time. This one is sourced out of the UK. And, I only write that as another point of reference. It's nothing new. And what also isn't anything new is that the same type of thing has become an epidemic in the US via USA Swimming. But, you guys don't rail on that as much here.

I draft these posts up and delete them because what good is it going to do? I'm not trying to change minds. I'm just providing my opinion, and opinions are like @$$holes everyone has one. So, there I said it. And, of people who frequent this message board, there are only a few to my knowledge who have any real business posting about Brett and his conduct towards his athletes. Yes, Amy and I are two of those athletes who must have questionable morals for choosing to go to TeamTBB and work with Brett. Suffice to say I'm willing to stack my morals up against anyone's, but go ahead and question them like some of you have Rapp's. I'm not going to justify our decision for being coached by Brett and TeamTBB. Suffice to say we knew the history. Me because I've been in this sport since 88 and remember one of the first interviews ever done with Sutton, which might have been here on this site as I remember a quote from it being that "Carlson got to Sutton"...before a lot of people on this board were involved in triathlon. And, I made sure that Amy knew the entire history as well. Actually, here's the article http://www.slowtwitch.com/...opinion/carlson.html Dan writes an op-ed that still rings true. But, Dan has a way of writing or at least op-eding that doesn't sit well with a lot of people on somewhat controversial subjects.

So, why am I writing this? I don't know. I know exactly where I stand on things related to Brett Sutton. The only regret, if you want to call it that, about racing with TeamTBB is that it was a risk for a 35 year old pro that resulted in mediocre results. His coaching style isn't for everyone. It has been described as throw a dozen eggs against the wall and maybe one will survive, but they aren't all physically broken. And there might be some truth to that 1 in 12 statement depending on who you deem to be a success on the team or from all of his athletes not just the superstars. But, really I don't think that is accurate about his coaching in the sense that most mean. Never at any point in time did Amy feel 'at risk' nor did I. Brett is a coach who cares about his athletes, but a lot of you aren't going to see that in this post and no amount of writing might convince you otherwise or at least change your opinions of the man. I'm not here to do that either. You are just going to see a little troll of a man who committed a crime, never really paid for it in your eyes, and should never ever be allowed to coach again or have anything to do with triathlon.

You won't read the fact that there is a lot of truth to what he says. You won't know that he tells aspiring coaches that what he did is the worst thing you could do as a coach and that he's still paying for it. And he tells them at the same time, it is one of the failings of many coaches...that temptation. You won't see that he's got some great ideas about the sport. You won't note that unlike a lot of those who are in the sport to get theirs and only theirs, that he's in the sport first because he loves it and is passionate about it. Yes, he wants to get his as well, but I've really seen a lot of efforts made for the improvement of the sport as well. Improvements that hit on a lot of the same topics that are hit upon in this forum for pros, age groupers, race directors, etc. Dan has questioned at times and written about whether or not various people or groups being a steward of the sport. Brett is that.

To Bjorn. I hear what you are saying, and some of it rings true. Brett is really the glue that holds TeamTBB together and a lot of athletes are there because of Brett. But, a lot of athletes are there because of the promise of sponsorship, equipment, and coaching all under one umbrella. That is what initially brought us to the team, the complete package of sponsorship and coaching with very little expense outside of getting to and being at the camps and some prize money %age. It might have changed a bit in 2012, but we don't know. It really does beat the pants off of trying to do it all yourself AND find a world class coach all wrapped into one.


Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [-BrandonMarshTX] [ In reply to ]
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Great stuff Tex.
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [-BrandonMarshTX] [ In reply to ]
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You are of course free to be coached by Sutton for any reason you choose. And I won't question your morals for doing so, even if your decision was born mostly out of convenience (wanting the package deal of sponsorship and coaching with little front-end expense). He may be remorseful for his crime, and he may have paid a high price. He also may have some great ideas about triathlon that many could learn from.

That, however, does not change my opinion that the price he should pay for his crime is a lifetime ban from coaching. But because I have no influence over that, my choice is to simply consider him a persona non grata. I likewise feel that way about any athlete who chooses to be coached by him, and any companies that sponsor his team.

My choice may or may not be logical or fair, but that's what it is until someone changes my mind otherwise.
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [-BrandonMarshTX] [ In reply to ]
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The letters Dan received in reply to that column are worth reading. Among them is a letter from Sutton himself that is definitely worth reading.

http://www.slowtwitch.com/.../opinion/sutton.html

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Rappstar wrote:
The letters Dan received in reply to that column are worth reading. Among them is a letter from Sutton himself that is definitely worth reading.

http://www.slowtwitch.com/.../opinion/sutton.html

Agree about the letters being very good. That column also reminded me that the crazy-flashing ST ads literally were the reason that I installed adblock on my computer (although I think it was some other flash-blocker that existed before adblock?).
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Your posting that link led me to see this piece written by Dan for the first time. I really can't believe someone as smart as Dan would write that, although I guess I shouldn't be surprised given his continuing (until recently) head-in-the-sand attitude about Lance.

Dan's wrong, Sutton isn't our sport's Pete Rose, preying on a minor is a world apart from betting on baseball. And Pete Rose is banned for life from baseball, unfortunately we can't say the same about Sutton. He has every right to be a contributing member of society, but no right in my opinion to be in a position of authority over others such as a teacher or coach.

I've seen your friendship develop with Sutton just via your tweets over the past few months and I must say, it kind of sucks to see. You're free to do as you choose certainly, and I guess I'm free to be disappointed.







Portside Athletics Blog
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [-BrandonMarshTX] [ In reply to ]
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-BrandonMarshTX wrote:
Suffice to say I'm willing to stack my morals up against anyone's, but go ahead and question them like some of you have Rapp's....

Forgive me for being short, it is flu season and our resources are stretched thin trying to figure out who has the sniffles and who has the flu. Maybe it isn't as tiring as a Brett Sutton workout, but when you get to tell a kid he can go home and play Xbox with his brother it makes the long days worth it. Reminds me why I chose to work in a children's hospital- kids are precious and innocent and it is all of our responsibilities to keep them safe.

That having been said, we can now stack morals. I spend my days, and lately nights, trying to keep kids healthy and safe. You work for and publicly defend a man who as a 27 year old male used his position of authority to sexually abuse a 14 year old girl. A crime he pleaded guilty to and never spent a day in prison for. He is, however, contrite about the whole ordeal. Are we done stacking?

Look, here is the truth. I don't think you or Jordan or Chrissie or any other member of team tbb are bad people for working with Brett. I think you all know that interactions with him can aid your careers and I think you are willing to buy the line he has managed to sell you about him molesting a 14 year old girl. None of you would have given him a chance if he wasn't as good a coach as he is. And none of you would work with him if he didn't convince you that he is remorseful and reformed. Thing is, I am fairly certain Sutton knows all this and knows his success depends on convincing folks to look past his actions.
You aren't bad people; you are people buying a load of crap from a piece of shit. I think the professional success that piece of shit can offer is what brought you in the door to the showroom and I think the convincing sales pitch is what sold you. You aren't bad people, you are just human.
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [Yknot] [ In reply to ]
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Yknot wrote:
-BrandonMarshTX wrote:
Suffice to say I'm willing to stack my morals up against anyone's, but go ahead and question them like some of you have Rapp's....


Forgive me for being short, it is flu season and our resources are stretched thin trying to figure out who has the sniffles and who has the flu. Maybe it isn't as tiring as a Brett Sutton workout, but when you get to tell a kid he can go home and play Xbox with his brother it makes the long days worth it. Reminds me why I chose to work in a children's hospital- kids are precious and innocent and it is all of our responsibilities to keep them safe.

That having been said, we can now stack morals. I spend my days, and lately nights, trying to keep kids healthy and safe. You work for and publicly defend a man who as a 27 year old male used his position of authority to sexually abuse a 14 year old girl. A crime he pleaded guilty to and never spent a day in prison for. He is, however, contrite about the whole ordeal. Are we done stacking?

Look, here is the truth. I don't think you or Jordan or Chrissie or any other member of team tbb are bad people for working with Brett. I think you all know that interactions with him can aid your careers and I think you are willing to buy the line he has managed to sell you about him molesting a 14 year old girl. None of you would have given him a chance if he wasn't as good a coach as he is. And none of you would work with him if he didn't convince you that he is remorseful and reformed. Thing is, I am fairly certain Sutton knows all this and knows his success depends on convincing folks to look past his actions.
You aren't bad people; you are people buying a load of crap from a piece of shit. I think the professional success that piece of shit can offer is what brought you in the door to the showroom and I think the convincing sales pitch is what sold you. You aren't bad people, you are just human.

These same people who will support Sutton and talk about how he is reformed and his actions don't matter because time has passed or the girl is now happily married (that one totally blew my mind) are the same ones who want to see LA destroyed for doping and being an asshole to people even if he were to come out and confess. This is not a defense of LA it's simply unbelievable where some people place their priorities.

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Re: Brett Sutton Article [Yknot] [ In reply to ]
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Except I don't work for him or the team. That is the truth.


Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [-BrandonMarshTX] [ In reply to ]
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-BrandonMarshTX wrote:
... Yes, Amy and I are two of those athletes who must have questionable morals for choosing to go to TeamTBB and work with Brett.....

Maybe I really am tired to have misread this?
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [Yknot] [ In reply to ]
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2010/2011. Work with = be coached by during those two years.


Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [avagoyamug] [ In reply to ]
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Wow! So marrying a top triathlete makes you fine? WTF?

Most/all child rape victims marry. Yes it is RAPE. A 14 y.o. CANNOT have consensual sex with a 30 y.o. PERIOD.

Is it the top triathlete that makes her "fine" or the getting married?

14 year olds are protected by law for a reason. Their brains are not developed and cognitively they are unable to weigh long term consequences or adequately understand when people are being honest and when they are manipulating them. Which is why predators groom victims.

"Well, she signed that contract when she was 14 and lost all of her inheritance money but she married a top triathlete so she's fine".

Same thing. Although she lost much, much more than money.

Shame on you.
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [-BrandonMarshTX] [ In reply to ]
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He works for you or did once upon a time ...ok

Would you hire Victor Conte of Balco to provide you legit and legal nutritional product that would help your performance, knowing the implications?

Would you hire Dr. Michele Ferrari if he were to provide you legit and legal medical services, knowing the implications?

I can't imagined what Brett Sutton is providing you all that is so great and above and beyond what other great coaches are providing that you would associate your names to him. I would imagine that image, perceived or otherwise, ranks pretty high up there for a professional athlete of any sport. Why would any triathlete associate with Sutton, knowing the baggage that is involved, eludes me.

If any major league baseball player, NFL, NBA, or pro runners were to hire Victor Conte and Michele Ferrari to help them, even in a legit manner, I would imagine their sponsors would be up in arms. I would also imagine them loosing some fans because of it.

I would tend to believe that if you were to hire Lance to be your cycling coach that you would also loose some fans even though he can probably make you a much better cyclist. I would think that some sponsors would shy from you also.

Wouldn't the smart thing to do is to shy away from a person with such controversy? If I were an Olympic podium caliber triathlete, I wouldn't touch Brett with a 10 foot pole even if it guaranteed me a podium spot. Everyone out there would look at my medal with a raised eyebrow even if I did nothing illegal or unethical.


__________________________________________________________________________
My marathon PR is "under three, high twos. I had a two hour and fifty-something."
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [-BrandonMarshTX] [ In reply to ]
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Ouch! Brandon... enjoyed your Slowtwitch showcase article. And have been a fan. But DUDE!!!!

Bad PR.

As an athlete that needs fans/supporters (i.e. showing to your sponsors that you can influence people's buying decisions) posting on a thread tacitly supporting a convicted child rapist... Not a good idea.

Shit.

Not only did you compromise yourself but Amy as well.

Advice for the future. DO NOT EVER POST ON CONTROVERSIAL TOPICS! NO MATTER WHAT!

Now you are the dude associated with Brett Sutton. If you had a PR person they would be shitting in their pants.

Crap! Now when I see yours or Amy's results... first thought... they like the child rapist.

Head in hand. Shaking head. Wondering how I an reconcile this.
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [ironpsych] [ In reply to ]
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So much black and white viewing in this issue. It was a bad thing he did, he has paid for it and continues to pay and pay and suffer. Some on the typical Slowtwich lynch mob sit on their high horse with burning rods ready to burn him at the stake. Save me the shame on you histrionics please. I was just pointing out that the girl's life was not ruined and that is was consensual, and that he took a plea bargain to avoided sullying her name by making these statements himself in court. I understand there was a massive abuse of power and trust there and it was a terrible thing to do, but for me it's not enough to write a man off for life. Understand that for those ponitficating they have a right to their view too.
These are the details that those who have work with him and defend him are aware of and although I can't speak on their behalf I'd guess probably the reason they decided to work with him. He doesn't coach anyone under the age of 18 and seems to be only be a force for good in our sport and society these days.
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [avagoyamug] [ In reply to ]
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He should pay every day until he dies.


Not a day should pass where he does not think of what he did and the reality that he breached the trust of society.

___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)
Last edited by: realAlbertan: Jan 10, 13 21:33
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [Yknot] [ In reply to ]
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Yknot wrote:
-BrandonMarshTX wrote:
Suffice to say I'm willing to stack my morals up against anyone's, but go ahead and question them like some of you have Rapp's....

Forgive me for being short, it is flu season and our resources are stretched thin trying to figure out who has the sniffles and who has the flu. Maybe it isn't as tiring as a Brett Sutton workout, but when you get to tell a kid he can go home and play Xbox with his brother it makes the long days worth it. Reminds me why I chose to work in a children's hospital- kids are precious and innocent and it is all of our responsibilities to keep them safe.

That having been said, we can now stack morals. I spend my days, and lately nights, trying to keep kids healthy and safe. You work for and publicly defend a man who as a 27 year old male used his position of authority to sexually abuse a 14 year old girl. A crime he pleaded guilty to and never spent a day in prison for. He is, however, contrite about the whole ordeal. Are we done stacking?

Look, here is the truth. I don't think you or Jordan or Chrissie or any other member of team tbb are bad people for working with Brett. I think you all know that interactions with him can aid your careers and I think you are willing to buy the line he has managed to sell you about him molesting a 14 year old girl. None of you would have given him a chance if he wasn't as good a coach as he is. And none of you would work with him if he didn't convince you that he is remorseful and reformed. Thing is, I am fairly certain Sutton knows all this and knows his success depends on convincing folks to look past his actions.
You aren't bad people; you are people buying a load of crap from a piece of shit. I think the professional success that piece of shit can offer is what brought you in the door to the showroom and I think the convincing sales pitch is what sold you. You aren't bad people, you are just human.

For the record, I am not now and never have been a part of Team TBB. Brett is not now and never has been my coach. I do not "work with" Brett in any capacity. I do not seek his advice, input, or anything else in any capacity that would further my career. What knowledge I have gleaned from him, I have gleaned from what he writes on twitter, interviews he does, etc. There is no weighing of "well, on the one hand, Brett abused a minor, but on the other hand, he could help me win a lot of races." I have none of that. I do not ask Brett for advice. I have a coach - Michael Krueger. I trust him, and I do not need to second guess what he's doing with Brett. Just so we are clear.

I haven't been brought into any showroom. I haven't bought a load of crap. But you are right that I am human. And in being human I thought about the mistakes that I've made in my life. And some of them have been pretty massive. I've thought about the fact that I don't know this man at all outside of two things - 1) he committed a heinous crime that he owned up to and 2) he seems to care a great deal about making right for a very, very serious wrong that he committed. So I decided that it was not my place to judge him. And I decided to give him the benefit of the doubt.

After Ironman Texas, Brett wrote a short but complimentary tweet about me. So I asked Brandon for Brett's email. I wrote to Brett and said, paraphrasing slightly for brevity, "I saw what you wrote on twitter. Thank you. But you should know that I've said some pretty harsh and condemning things about you in very public forums. I feel badly about having done that, because I realized I don't actually know you or really know what happened other than - at best - some 3rd hand accounts. I assumed you were a scumbag because you did something awful. But people change. And based off what I know about you from people whose opinion I value - like Brandon - you don't actually seem like a scumbag. Anyway..."

I didn't really write it expecting much of a reply. I just wrote it because I did not feel good about having sat in judgement - like plenty of folks on this thread have done and are doing - of someone I don't really know. That's not the person I want to be. That's it. That's why I wrote to Brett. And when he wrote back, he wrote something very similar to that letter to Dan. He thanked me, but said he lives with what he's done every day. And nothing can change that. But he's doing his best to try and make up for it. I take him at his word. If you don't that's fine. But ours is not a relationship of personal gain. I don't profit from Brett. And he doesn't profit from me.

I wrote to him most recently - I write about once a month or so - because I enjoyed his blog about kids' sports. And because I didn't know he was a father - he has two sets of kids from two marriages - 25, 22, 21 from #1 and 9 & 7 from #2. We talked a bit about running shoes. And then he asked me to share the post about the kids. He told me that he doesn't really care about people reading his coaching stuff, but that he cared a lot about the way we are affecting our kids through sport, and that he'd appreciate my sharing that post. Now, maybe that's a load of crap. And maybe I bought it. I'll accept that. I just don't want to be that cynical. I don't think the world is that dark. And I hope I never do...

To the poster who said Brett is not Pete Rose, I think you misunderstand the analogy. What Pete did - fundamentally - was to violate trust. That's the same thing that Brett did. Pete violated his stewardship of the game. Brett also violated his stewardship. Now, this is certainly not to equate statutory rape with betting on baseball. It's to analogize that their crimes directly impacted their role as stewards. E.g., if Brett had committed the same crime with a girl who Brett was not coaching, Dan would not have drawn that analogy. It is the violation of trust by a steward that led Dan to make that analogy. If you focus only on the severity of the crimes, you miss that. And I think it's important. I respect that other people may not.

What troubles me about this thread, more than anything, is that everyone assumes that people are acting solely out of self-interest. Have we really all become Homo economicus or some sort of Ayn Rand-ian traders who care only "what's in it for me?" I pray - and I'm not any sort of religious - that we haven't...

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [AlwaysCurious] [ In reply to ]
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Should he be barred from coaching or barred from coaching athletes below a certain age?
He still has to earn a living. He still has a contribution to make.

Is there never any redemption, released murderers live among us.
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [BLACKSHEEP] [ In reply to ]
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He is banned from coaching in Australia. Cecil Russell is also banned from coaching as is Graham James. Sutto could have walked away and took a job as a labourer.

___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [avagoyamug] [ In reply to ]
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"Save me the shame on you histrionics please. I was just pointing out that the girl's life was not ruined and that is was consensual"

Sure I get it. Guy in his 20's screws up and repents and tries to make amends. I get it. I've done it. Not the child rape thing but we all make mistakes.

I can see that a lifetime of good deeds could/should wash away a "youthful" (although 27 is not really "youthful", I would say "willful") indiscretion.

If I'm 27 and some 14 y.o. is rubbing up on me... I have to make a decision. (although I am VERY doubtful that that is the way it worked out).

But you SHOULD be ashamed of yourself by trying to minimize the impact that that sort of inappropriate relationship has on a young girl/boy. Not only it's immediate aftermath but for years (a lifetime) later. And to reiterate... a 14 y.o. girl CANNOT have consensual sex with an almost 30 y.o. male. Cannot happen. Period. There are no Lolitas. There are only predators.

Similar to the pediatrician who posted earlier I too have intimate knowledge of how this type of situation effects young people.

Hint: My sign on name... wait for it.... wait for it... ding, ding. The "psych" stands for something.

So, should a man be able to rehab his image after a fall from grace. Yes. But should his actions lose context over time. No. A 27 y.o. man had sex with a 14 y.o. girl. There is not a single Western society that thinks that that is O.K. The context for Sutton is that we do not know that it has happened again. Which is a good sign. Although, doesn't he run his camps in Southeast Asia? That might not be a good sign.

And should pro triathletes who value sponsorship dollars be supporting controversial figures with a background like Sutton's. No. Can they be coached by them. Yes. But quietly.

And I am all for forgiveness. Check out my posts on the LA thread. But doping vs. child rape is much, much different. Not everybody was raping children in those days.

and it was not "CONSENSUAL".

Any ladies want to chime in?
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